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+--- Thread: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco (/showthread.php?tid=124551)
Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - sindroms - 01-10-2015
First of all, I am quickly going to note that a lot of the things I mention from early 84 times were in fact observed by me through newbie-goggles. Older members can correct me if I am wrong.
Secondly, keep it civilized if you can. Thirdly, I am running on two energy drinks, so pardon if I lose sight of the point I am trying to make halfway through the topic.
Let me take you back to a time called the 84s, the second mod version which focused entirely on RP-centric content to be added to Disco. If someone would ask me about the RP side of things, I would answer just like any other vet from those times- RP was generally a much poorer quality than what we have now, but at the same time the actual height of the bar set by players was also relatively low. It means people would not feel shame to try and RP, since as long as you called someone ''sir'', it already counted as RP. Things were ''much more relaxed'' in a way. Sure, we had the usual oorp hate between factions, but that is something that does not change over time.
Though we did indeed lack something we have today. A certain approach to ingame activity which I will refer to as "Skypefriends Group" attitude. Where a large group of players have characters spread over the whole map and have access to different IDs and have the ability to take part and react to happenings ingame within moments.
Those days, it was uncommon. The very notion that a player could be in *gasp* two factions at the same time, was generally something we looked down upon. Usually a player would dedicate all his time to *his* faction and nothing else. That same mindset also is the reason why indies were hated even more than now. Though perhaps *hating* is too strong of a word. It simply seemed that an indie player was not ''dedicated'' enough for their ID.
The best example of the above were the Outcasts (101st, RoS, SOB and tagged MNS indies) and the Corsairs (TBH, OPG, HAF indies). Pride and almost nationalistic behavour was common. And it generated a lot of activity. And a lot of hate.
"Fungroups" existed back then, but they never used non-generic IDs. The playerbase would stomp them into the ground. The official factions back then were given right to actively shape their NPC Faction as they saw fit and it was a big deal. They were obligated by the community and their indies to RP and move the faction forward. They had a specific purpose. Having such fungroups around hindered them and they would be quickly removed. One way or another.
It was also a time of factions such as Phantoms, but I will talk more about them a bit later. It was around 85, when things began to change. I do not remember who was the first person to bring it up on the forum, but the short version would be that people noticed that this ''faction dedication'' thing spawned a lot of bad blood. Popular players at the time would then specifically put dualistic signatures in their profiles, such as outcasts and corsairs or rogues and xenos, liberty navy and lane hackers to try and change the overall attitude. People began chanting that diversifying your approach to Disco will help you in the long run. That a player should be able to enjoy Disco from different aspects rather than having to choose one faction and then be prosecuted for it.
Some might argue that it was a good approach. That playing in a certain part of Sirius from both sides of the political spectrum allowed for more fun and less bad blood. But it was the turning point, where people started demanding more ''fun'' from Disco.
Let us quickly note that a game doesn't need to be fun to be engaging. I am sure a lot of faction leaders can agree here. Disco is not fun at times. But it is the fact that it is so engaging that makes it hard to leave.
Now let us go back to the fungroups. With this change in mind, people started experimenting with other IDs. More groups would pop up, now that freedom of the individual and fun was centered around ingame actions, rather than RP dedication. People would finally say that ''they are not obligated to fall into the nieche of the server standards. That they came here for fun and as long as they did not break the rules, they should be able to play regardless of their dedication towards RP.''
RPing was mandatory. But the quality of RP was completely unrelated. Especially in pre-PVP talk. It was done more out of necessity rather than genuine interest in the RP.
Now let us go back to the Phantoms. They might as well be considered as the first lolz-group of the server. What made them unique at the time was that due to the reasons described above, such a group that openly focused on PVP and ingame terrorism to ''spice up'' the gameplay was an unique rarity. There weren't a lot of them. If at all.
The idea that a constant band of people would wreck havoc upon the server within the server rules was unheard of. And this is what made them so fun.
However, people quickly decided that this sort of gameplay is very fun. Especially with friends. And it did not take long, especially after the ID rehaul of 85, for people to realize that they can simulate the Phantom gameplay with other IDs. This was the time of many of such ''fungroups''.
I too took part in it: the Allertons (The xeno ones), the Tau Trollsquad with Lick.A.Brick. The first incarnation of the Torpedoes. All factions with fun and pvp in mind, but little else than that. A factions I advertised as places to relax and take things a bit less seriously. To escape the demands and obligations of official factions and just enjoy something mindless.
And this became popular.
Very popular.
What was once unthinkable now became the norm. Even now many new factions sprout up with either "RP" or "FUN" focus in their descriptions. Such fun-centric factions weren't rare anymore and the overall attitude changed. People saw that they did not need complex RP and contribution to have fun. And so it became the norm.
The removal of the phantoms might have been the last ditch attempt to hint to the rest of the community that such an attitude towards the server was a huge mistake. That Disco in order for it to remain what it was, needed to avoid going down that path. Needless to say, it failed.
Now such groups are a norm. I personally enjoy being in them as well. But I will say that the attitude towards Disco is probably the biggest issue with it. And funnily enough I did bring it up once during outings like this, and the overall reaction by the people involved was simple: "I would give more of a crap if others did. If others don't, why should I?"
Oh well. Still fun.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Veygaar - 01-10-2015
Well said.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - nOmnomnOm - 01-10-2015
IMO if you're playing a game and it is not fun for you or enjoyable then you should stop.
I'd say even if you get mad you look back at it later and say : hey it was still fun.
That being said it still needs to be RP. Still needs to work and help imo immerse yourself and others in the game.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Omi - 01-10-2015
(01-10-2015, 10:38 PM)Veygaar Wrote: Well said.
"Well said?"
I can't even tell what this post is meant to be about, and I've trawled through it twice now. To me, it just looks like a rambling, incoherent mess - with, of course, Spazzy trying to big himself up as usual.
I mean - yeah, you yourself said something about running on energy drinks, but if there's a point to be made anywhere at all in your post then I'm afraid I can't find it. Maybe you should cut all the self-aggrandisement and succinctly put across whatever it is you're trying to put across.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - WesternPeregrine - 01-10-2015
From what I understood from the last paragraphs, is that groups assembled for "arcade" fun, and without much consideration for rp involvement, are immediately more gratifying than the "dull" rp and faction groups everyone is used too.
Plus some jabs at Phantoms and Admin deliberations, from what I could gather.
In conclusion: "fungroups" are fun to play, at the expense of those groups that try to play to the [RP] written on the [Discovery RP 24/7 Server].
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - nOmnomnOm - 01-10-2015
It is a history lesson.
They dont have really a point to take out of most of the time. ^^
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Jack_Henderson - 01-10-2015
Many interesting points you make in there.
The one that struck me was the "you need to be engaged to keep playing" and the distinction between "fun" and "engaging" experience ingame. I agree there.
While I appreciate the advice to look at the different facettes of Disco by having chars on all sides, I see the problem exactly as Spazzy does and I think I can also offer a solution: keep your "core" centered on one project/faction/region. Stay "loyal" to that part by any means.
This will mean that you will rage and hate and yell in joy when you win... because these insignificant things matter to you only when it is done on your "main" faction. Example: I do not mind if I die on my GMG|. Nor on my TBH. I fight to death without a prob on my Faze|. Losing there does not get me "engaged". My main group does. And - thinking about it - I bet that this is what has kept me around so long.
Interesting post, Spazzy. Made me think about a few things I have not yet thought about.
Jack
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Jihadjoe - 01-13-2015
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: Let me take you back to a time called the 84s, the second mod version which focused entirely on RP-centric content to be added to Disco. If someone would ask me about the RP side of things, I would answer just like any other vet from those times- RP was generally a much poorer quality than what we have now, but at the same time the actual height of the bar set by players was also relatively low. It means people would not feel shame to try and RP, since as long as you called someone ''sir'', it already counted as RP. Things were ''much more relaxed'' in a way. Sure, we had the usual oorp hate between factions, but that is something that does not change over time.
This is an interesting perception. RP was different, for sure. It wasn't that RP was better or worse, but rather there was a far wider range of quality. There was more better RP and more worse RP, and less sitting in a state of comfortable mediocrity.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: Though we did indeed lack something we have today. A certain approach to ingame activity which I will refer to as "Skypefriends Group" attitude. Where a large group of players have characters spread over the whole map and have access to different IDs and have the ability to take part and react to happenings ingame within moments.
Those days, it was uncommon. The very notion that a player could be in *gasp* two factions at the same time, was generally something we looked down upon. Usually a player would dedicate all his time to *his* faction and nothing else. That same mindset also is the reason why indies were hated even more than now. Though perhaps *hating* is too strong of a word. It simply seemed that an indie player was not ''dedicated'' enough for their ID.
Incorrect. The NovaPG, RoS, LN/SA (just for the sake of clarity, the SA was the South Alliance - the Liberty Navy faction that evolved into today's [LN]) and XA had significant cross membership. There were also multiple well known TBH members in the XA and LN/SA. the SCRA was formed of people who played in multiple factions.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: The best example of the above were the Outcasts (101st, RoS, SOB and tagged MNS indies) and the Corsairs (TBH, OPG, HAF indies). Pride and almost nationalistic behavour was common. And it generated a lot of activity. And a lot of hate.
Not an accurate perception. While there certainly was an awful lot of chest-beating, the OC and Corsair factions actually got on rather well in oorp terms - Mostly. There is one fairly long running series of incidents that sticks out in my head where this well-meaning oorp relationship broke down. However, for the most part it was healthy and cooperative... with one or two individuals taking things personally and being dicks to everyone. These people were normally dumped on by their own side.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: "Fungroups" existed back then, but they never used non-generic IDs. The playerbase would stomp them into the ground. The official factions back then were given right to actively shape their NPC Faction as they saw fit and it was a big deal. They were obligated by the community and their indies to RP and move the faction forward. They had a specific purpose. Having such fungroups around hindered them and they would be quickly removed. One way or another.
By "fungroup" do you mean trollsquad?
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: but the short version would be that people noticed that this ''faction dedication'' thing spawned a lot of bad blood. Popular players at the time would then specifically put dualistic signatures in their profiles, such as outcasts and corsairs or rogues and xenos, liberty navy and lane hackers to try and change the overall attitude. People began chanting that diversifying your approach to Disco will help you in the long run. That a player should be able to enjoy Disco from different aspects rather than having to choose one faction and then be prosecuted for it.
As discussed above, your perception of cross membership in factions is skewed. It was not as you have presented it here. Cross membership was common, often cross membership of opposing factions. For example Liberty Navy and Xenos. Only a certain few players had the "you can be in this faction and this faction alone" attitude.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: Now let us go back to the Phantoms. They might as well be considered as the first lolz-group of the server. What made them unique at the time was that due to the reasons described above, such a group that openly focused on PVP and ingame terrorism to ''spice up'' the gameplay was an unique rarity. There weren't a lot of them. If at all.
The idea that a constant band of people would wreck havoc upon the server within the server rules was unheard of. And this is what made them so fun.
The NovaPG were the first unlawful faction on the server - Older than the Phantoms by some time. They were percieved in much the same way. You may be remembering the Phantoms in their later years, where they still behaved like all unlawful factions behaved in late .83 and eary .84, depsite times having changed and the environment being different. in the days I refer to, the phantoms' behaviour was not out of the ordinary.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: I too took part in it: the Allertons (The xeno ones), the Tau Trollsquad with Lick.A.Brick. The first incarnation of the Torpedoes. All factions with fun and pvp in mind, but little else than that. A factions I advertised as places to relax and take things a bit less seriously. To escape the demands and obligations of official factions and just enjoy something mindless.
And this became popular.
Very popular.
No. It became very unpopular with the community at large after 4.85, which made it more noticable. Fewer people were doing this as a matter of course, and therefore the few who were doing it gathered people to their banner, despite it being an inherently unpopular method of playing. this was the time when the words "pvp whoring" became probably the greatest insult one could throw at someone or at a group of people.
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: What was once unthinkable now became the norm. Even now many new factions sprout up with either "RP" or "FUN" focus in their descriptions. Such fun-centric factions weren't rare anymore and the overall attitude changed. People saw that they did not need complex RP and contribution to have fun. And so it became the norm.
Quite the opposite. there was a phenomenon known as the YANF or Yet Another New Faction. These factions would invariably be an unlawful faction, or a rebel group of some variety, whose faction writeup would say "fighting against yadda blah but with operations all over sirius". these groups would then basically cruise around and fight whoever they wanted to. There were tons of them...
(01-10-2015, 10:10 PM)sindroms Wrote: The removal of the phantoms might have been the last ditch attempt to hint to the rest of the community that such an attitude towards the server was a huge mistake. That Disco in order for it to remain what it was, needed to avoid going down that path. Needless to say, it failed.
Now such groups are a norm. I personally enjoy being in them as well. But I will say that the attitude towards Disco is probably the biggest issue with it. And funnily enough I did bring it up once during outings like this, and the overall reaction by the people involved was simple: "I would give more of a crap if others did. If others don't, why should I?"
The removal of the Phantoms was the removal of an outdated idea that no longer fitted with the current roleplay style. The "fun-group" as you like to put it, is an unrelated phenomenon, which has been partly created by yourself. You refer to the skype-friends mentality of having characters scattered all over sirius as if that is something that didn't exist in the past, but the truth is that has existed for the entire time I have been involved in the community. For the entire time I have played here, from way back in 2007, people have been cross-factioning and have logged characters with their friends in hot-spots as they appeared.
This is not the same thing as having an RP-shallow squad of people who do whatever the hell they wanna do.
You appear to be trying to make a point which isn't actually backed up by disco's history.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Tigger - 01-13-2015
I'm with Joe on this.
Also, sometimes when we wax psychopathic down memory lane, visions are skewed simply because the then was "different" than the now. Sure, some things were more fun than others then, same as now. Nowadays there's a lot the feel like they've been nerfed to hell and back. Some things simply change, some things the only part the changes are the names and faces but the drama about the same things over and over again remain.
When it's fun, play and have a good time. When it's not fun, go find something else that is fun.
While yes I could very much go for less restrictions and nerfs, I don't enjoy troll squads in either the 'then' or the 'now'. There's other places and games where that's the norm.
RE: Thoughts on the "Fun Group" attitude evolution on Disco - Veygaar - 01-13-2015
I think the history depends on the view point, what circles you were in or not in. Joining shortly after Spazzy his account seems far more accurate than Joe's.
Point of views...