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+--- Thread: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines (/showthread.php?tid=125432)
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Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines - Redon - 01-30-2015
I'd like to bring to discussion a few things about the nerfs on the ID- and ship-based tech chart that make very little sense in my eyes.
When engines were free 100% tech for all, things were pretty simple, but now the intersection between Sirian and Gallic IDs, engines, ships and their nerfs brings some problems that I think shouldn't exist and are likely not intended.
The first odd thing I noticed is that, apparently, the Freelancer ID gets a 90% nerf on Gallic engines. This means there is no way for you to be a Gallic civilian freelancer in a Gallic civilian ship without getting nerfed. Combine a Gallic ship with a Gallic engine? 90%. Combine a Gallic ship with a Sirian engine? You get nerfed to hell.
Why should it be inherently discouraged for a freelancer, arguably the most neutral and generic ID publicly available, to have a Gallic engine on a Gallic ship? Do freelancers not exist in Gallia? Shouldn't the ship-based nerf take care of weird ship/engine combos?
The same goes for the Pirate ID. Miner ID just gets a red cell straight away for anything with a Gallic engine. Who needs generic IDs anyway.
But it gets better than that.
IDF shipping gets access to IMG weapons and light ships at 75%. However, the IDF ID only allows Gallic engines. So, should an IDF ID player like to make use of this tech cell, they can either combine the IMG ship with a Sirian engine, and get a red cell for using a Sirian engine, or combine the IMG ship with a Gallic engine, and get a red cell for putting a Gallic engine on a Sirian ship. Unless there is a way around this that escapes me, that means this cell is completely useless.
The same goes for all Gallic corp ID + Kusari Civilian ship combos, and some vice versa.
Then there's the thing with the weapons: Let's assume for a moment said IDF player got the ship and engine to work without a nerf. Because this is a Sirian ship, they can't use their own Gallic weapons on it, but instead have to use the IMG weapons which come with another 75% nerf, which combines to a ~56% nerf at best. Great.
Council gets CR ships at 75%, but CR ships only mount Sirian engines, which are 90% for the Council ID. They can't use their own guns either, and the best alternative nerf-wise are Sirius civilian weapons at 90%. So, any Council ID + CR ship will always get at least a ~61% nerf. Very useful.
(Never mind the above part, apparently tech nerfs no longer stack the way I thought they do, or never did.)
What solutions would you propose?
My suggestion regarding the engines: Completely remove ID-based engine nerfs, and let the ship tech chart do that job on its own. That way, any ID can always use an engine on the ship it's supposed to be on, but will have to deal with any possible nerfs for using that ship.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Lythrilux - 01-30-2015
Can we just remove shipcompat? It's cancerous.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Vulkhard Muller - 01-30-2015
Keep Tech nerfs, and get rid of Ship compat and a lot of problems will be solved from what I can see.
Also give Freelancers/Pirates/Miners 100% with Gallic Civilian tech
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Mímir - 01-30-2015
(01-30-2015, 08:59 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Can we just remove shipcompat? It's cancerous.
No, it's a good thing. Otherwise everyone would have been flying Rapiers (in 4.87) or whatever turns out to be the best piece of kit in 4.88. It *will* degenerate into skype friendships or "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" oorp stuff. Bad.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Trev - 01-30-2015
(01-30-2015, 06:52 AM)Redon Wrote:
The first odd thing I noticed is that, apparently, the Freelancer ID gets a 90% nerf on Gallic engines. This means [color=#cccccc]there is no way for you to be a Gallic civilian freelancer in a Gallic civilian ship without getting nerfed. Combine a Gallic ship with a Gallic engine? 90%. Combine a Gallic ship with a Sirian engine? You get nerfed to hell.
The way it is seems justified to me. It's logical that freelancers don't have access to the best military grade equipment. In some US states, civilians can get semi-automatic versions of assault rifles, but not full auto. It's also logical that two things that are based on different technological philosophies (gallic ship and sirian engine) are barely compatible.
Quote:Why should it be inherently impossible for a freelancer, arguably the most neutral and generic ID publicly available, to have a Gallic engine on a Gallic ship? Do freelancers not exist in Gallia? Shouldn't the ship-based nerf take care of weird ship/engine combos?
90% nerf doesn't make it inherently impossible to fly a ship. Not even a 10% nerf really makes flying a ship impossible. I fly a 10% power core 5k trade ship. I think there are even trade ships without guns. You're not the most pwnzore pvper with it, but you can still fly and RP in it.
Or am I misunderstanding you, and with a 90% nerf you mean you get a 10% power core?
Either way, the solution is not reremove technerf of ship compat, but to adjust it so it's logical and balanced. If you remove them, you'll have everyone flying the same rig, or 90% of newbies breaking rules without knowing it.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Karst - 01-30-2015
(01-30-2015, 10:01 AM)Mímir Wrote:(01-30-2015, 08:59 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Can we just remove shipcompat? It's cancerous.
No, it's a good thing. Otherwise everyone would have been flying Rapiers (in 4.87) or whatever turns out to be the best piece of kit in 4.88. It *will* degenerate into skype friendships or "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" oorp stuff. Bad.
I think you're thinking of just regular tech compatibility here. Ship-based technerf doesn't prevent anyone from flying Rapiers, only from putting certain guns (or as pointed out in the OP, engines) on it.
It doesn't prevent overpowered combination unless there's a certain gun that's vastly overpowered, which should require a gun rebalance.
Generic IDs having any kind of nerf on certain engine types is obviously complete nonsense.
And so is the way the way the whole ship based technerf was implemented.
It should have been "if there's no good reason why this shouldn't be possible, it is" rather than "if there's no good reason why this should be possible, it isn't".
That is, if there even are cases that necessitate it, I sure don't think there are many.
Ship based technerf has nothing to do with balance. There are no OP combinations it prevents, unless you think a 90% Sammael Odin is vastly superior to a 100% Natter Odin or whatever.
All it does is kill off variety and force factions -especially Gallic factions- into a tiny window of prepackaged tech.
But why bother arguing about this, I've done so more than enough, the vast majority agree it should go. I'm trying to lobby for a removal or at least a major revision of this wonderful "feature", we'll have to see how this goes.
(01-30-2015, 10:33 AM)Trev Wrote: The way it is seems justified to me. It's logical that freelancers don't have access to the best military grade equipment. In some US states, civilians can get semi-automatic versions of assault rifles, but not full auto. It's also logical that two things that are based on different technological philosophies (gallic ship and sirian engine) are barely compatible.
Don't understand your point here. We're specifically talking about civilian ships with civilian weapons, the "best military equipment" is a different category entirely.
The ship we're talking about is the semi-automatic version. Full-auto would be a Lynx with Musketoons or whatever.
Quote:Either way, the solution is not reremove technerf of ship compat, but to adjust it so it's logical and balanced. If you remove them, you'll have everyone flying the same rig, or 90% of newbies breaking rules without knowing it.
What? I'd say the opposite is true. If you remove shipcompat (not technerf in general, nobody's arguing that) you'd have more variety, not less.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Mímir - 01-30-2015
Ye brain fart here.
That being said, I think Gallia tech is awesome. I'd kill for LH having 2.0 class 8's and 8.33 class 7 faction guns.
Moreover Gallia offers unique 3.03 and 5.88 pulse guns that I could imagine would be real nasty on a sabre in conjunction with some Sirian guns. Coalition offers rather unique weaponry that will only work on faction ships and not Sabres
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Pancakes - 01-30-2015
Tech compact is satan, I'll agree with that.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines and more - Redon - 01-30-2015
(01-30-2015, 10:33 AM)Trev Wrote: The way it is seems justified to me. It's logical that freelancers don't have access to the best military grade equipment. In some US states, civilians can get semi-automatic versions of assault rifles, but not full auto. It's also logical that two things that are based on different technological philosophies (gallic ship and sirian engine) are barely compatible.
What Karst said. Freelancers can fly an Eagle with Flashpoints at 100%, why should they not be able to fly a Sunbeam with Pot-de-Fers? It's civilian tech, it's the Gallic equivalent.
(01-30-2015, 10:33 AM)Trev Wrote: 90% nerf doesn't make it inherently impossible to fly a ship. Not even a 10% nerf really makes flying a ship impossible. I fly a 10% power core 5k trade ship. I think there are even trade ships without guns. You're not the most pwnzore pvper with it, but you can still fly and RP in it.
Or am I misunderstanding you, and with a 90% nerf you mean you get a 10% power core?
My bad, I reworded that sentence. I didn't mean to say flying at 90% is impossible. I meant to say, why should a freelancer automatically get a nerf at all on civilian gear just for using an engine, when the same doesn't happen in the rest of Sirius? It seems to imply that using Gallic civilian tech is the second choice for a Gallic freelancer, or that being one at all is discouraged in Gallia.
Quote:Either way, the solution is not reremove technerf of ship compat, but to adjust it so it's logical and balanced. If you remove them, you'll have everyone flying the same rig, or 90% of newbies breaking rules without knowing it.
I agree. I'm only advocating the removal of the engine part from the ID table, because I think engine nerfs should always be linked to the ship they are on, and not who is flying that ship. If a Gallic engine works on a Gallic ship when a Gallic pilot is flying it, then it does for everyone else. Other IDs might just get a tech nerf for using a ship they are not supposed to use.
(01-30-2015, 10:52 AM)Mímir Wrote: Ye brain fart here.
That being said, I think Gallia tech is awesome. I'd kill for LH having 2.0 class 8's and 8.33 class 7 faction guns.
Moreover Gallia offers unique 3.03 and 5.88 pulse guns that I could imagine would be real nasty on a sabre in conjunction with some Sirian guns. Coalition offers rather unique weaponry that will only work on faction ships and not Sabres
Gallic lawfuls may have their musketoons, but don't forget all Sirians get Flashpoints at 100%. Those Gallic pulses wouldn't work on anything but a Gallic ship because of the ship tech chart, and I think that's fine the way it is.
RE: Techcompat non-sense with Sirian/Gallic engines - Mímir - 01-30-2015
Ok well, I agree about the engines and the Freelancers. Got a Gallic Freelancer using a Gallic civilian ship with Gallic engines at 90 percent, although I am pretty sure I got the same stuff at 100% when on a Pirate ID. Seems silly.