Alternative Options - Printable Version

Alternative Options - Printable Version

+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: Alternative Options (/showthread.php?tid=129750)

Pages: 1 2

Alternative Options - Ash - 05-23-2015

(05-21-2015, 12:44 AM)King Boo Wrote: We have a huge amount of people who point out problems. Nobody has answers on how to fix them though.
If you suggest is to reverse some of these changes, care to be a little more specific in which that you feel need to be addressed?

Following a discussion I set up here about certain aspects of the mod and server, some interesting points were raised and in response I would like to put forth a few suggestions for alterations to how the mod and the server is organised. As was addressed, parameters of the server are much easier to alter than parameters of the mod. So i'll start there:

IDs and Technology

IDs are the central dogma of all of our in-game RP. Roaming restrictions, however restrictive and narrow-minded, are the lesser evil and at this point cannot and should not be altered. However restrictions to vessel ownership, particularly with regard to cargo restrictions should no longer be a limiting factor. These parameters, including those implemented in the tech chart should be a lot more relaxed to account for the uniqueness of each character that everybody wants to implement. What I am proposing is that we bring more factions into the green and white than restricting access to only a handful of options.

The 90% tech nerf alone is enough to put off most people's attraction to non-generic RP equipment, so why don't we try and use that to deter abusers while opening doors to people looking to diversify their characters? My argument is that equipment in FL is human-made. Realistically, mounting hardware made by another human should not be difficult, even more-so if you're a tech-savvy junker. A complete rejection of an equipment loadout (in my opinion) should not occur unless there is an attempt to mount alien hardware.

With regard to ID actions, my suggestion is simple. Restrict guidelines only to actions that are prohibited. Ensure that these parameters are outlined definitively, for example:

Freelancer ID Wrote:Freelancers are people not affiliated with any faction in particular. They generally operate independent trade ships or small ships. They sometimes act as mercenaries, but mostly just explore Sirius, taking the odd job here or there to pay for fuel and supplies.

Pilot carrying this quasi-lawful ID is a Freelancer, who:

Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect an friendly or allied ship.
Can fulfill any bounty and escort contracts, and may treat transports as combat targets when executing a bounty or escort contract against them.
Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo, except for the Pirate Train.
Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.

Above is a classic example of a contradiction of statements. Some would argue that freelancers cannot commit any unlawful action, and yet freelancers are able to carry out any bounty contract. Which is correct? Meanwhile people are getting heckled and upset because these statements are being either misinterpreted or manipulated.

A terrible example of this is in the LWB ID which seriously needs fixing:

LWB ID Wrote:The LWB is a terrorist faction who wish to rid Planet Stuttgart of Synthfood influences. They frequently attack Synthfood ships and any ships carrying Synthfood products.

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the LWB, who:

Can attack any ships within their Zone of Influence, except transports.
Can demand cargo and credits from any ship within their Zone of Influence, and attack them if they do not comply.
Can attack Synthfoods anywhere.
Can treat any ship carrying Synth Paste or Synth Gel as combat targets.
Cannot ally with any lawfuls.
Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.

Zone of Influence: Rheinland, systems directly bordering Rheinland

So here we have a terrorist faction, which by most people's understanding is a cause to openly attack the opposition indiscriminately. Yet what follows is a cascade of restrictions to these actions which are all over the place. It lists that it is forbidden for an LWB to attack transports and yet twice afterward it is mentioned that it is fine to attack any ship. The ID couldn't be clearer in stating that an owner can engage synth foods anywhere, and yet there is a list of their ZoI. So what's the deal?

These contradictory and open ended statements are the source of much confusion and frustration to me personally (I cannot speak for the community) as it often leads to a breach in what someone else interprets as their RP. These open ended rulings are also fuel for those who would seek to bend what is essentially the engraved words of the managing staff and dev team to their advantage.

So I reiterate my suggestion that we should only only outline what an individual cannot do with his/her ID in clear and definitive text.

That being said, most parameters listed in discovery IDs are an attempt to force players to RP. This serves the server well with generating a generic RP base for people to base their characters, and simple guidelines of the dos and don'ts of their faction (even if they don't understand why).

Though most people who come here want to RP; there must be a better way of getting across the basic RP of a faction without implementing it as legislation. Variation of this RP is something to be celebrated, and most who would do so knowingly will likely have a very interesting reason for it. Though in most cases this variance is budded and labelled 'ooRP' because of the ID limitations. And instead of an interesting RP situation unfolding we get an irritable OORP conversation where people start quoting rules.

This is a reason why we do not get new factions cropping up anymore that were once hives of activity; like CR and SCRA. These two factions were both derived from IDs that at the time did not suit the parameters of their operations, but we let it fly anyway. Why? Because they we're fun to have around.

My suggestion is to pull back on some of the restrictions of faction IDs and instead keep the specifics to generic IDs such as the Freelancer ID.

Hardwired RP Rules

This is a cause of great annoyance to everyone who is not a zoner, and sometimes zoners themselves. I'm not just talking about no-fire zones - which have pretty much been hardwired into server rule 1.7 - but other subliminal rules that seem to fly as if they are a given to all players. Guard systems also play into this niche from time to time also. This is a glaring issue for new players who are unaware of these player-established implementations that often results in heckling and sometimes violation warnings. All too often these RP rules are fall-backs for players seeking to ensnare an unwary player into a no-win scenario. While the facade of these rules may seem to be sourced from RP, in this sense they are violations of rule 1.7 themselves through metagaming. Admins should do less to recognise and promote the enforcement of these player established rules on the basis that a player's RP has been broken.

Beureaucracy

While some plays do enjoy this aspect as they feel it adds to the RP base of whatever it is they are doing; whether it is (was) applying for a barge, a POB upgrade or an official faction request, it is heavily relied on by the admin staff as a buffer. Now while this is somewhat a good idea to filter out any time wasters and powergamers, there is little consideration for the time that is required by the applicant(s) in these lengthy processes. I agree that an individual should not be able to set up an official faction overnight, or get to a core 4 base in 90 minutes. But I do not think that those who wish to enhance the gameplay for themselves and others should be put through a drawn out process lasting weeks, and in the case of bases; months.

My point is that the reliance on beureaucracy i feel is turning away much activity and desire of players to stick with the server. This adds to the grinding aspect - which i'll go on to - and makes being here less and less about 'playing a game' and more about filing paperwork. People (including me) will always want more, and to see the next level so as to understand how far this game can be pushed. But it seems as though these features are reserved not for those who would do well, but those who would throw away hours upon days compiling an application and a RP base.

My suggestion would be to keep it for those that like it and use the current system as it stands. But lower the standards slightly. A hundful of players jump between most of the official factions on the server because they are the only ones who can be bothered to run them/start them up.

Grinding

Now this is a common and debatable issue so I won't linger. I'll start by saying I agree with every word listed here by Blodo:

(05-21-2015, 11:54 AM)Blodo Wrote: The mod is kind of like a painting, the longer you stay and interact with it the more details you see, the more satisfied you might be. On the other hand gaming culture is so casual, everyone just wants to try out the cool toys and move on. What other way to show off the "slightly less cool toys" that might actually seize someone's attention and yet are not talked about as much, than by involving some grind activity to encourage a longer stay?

That being said, our current system is not calibrated to the current level of player interest. The cost of funding characters and activities is still as high (if not higher) than when we used to pack the server with 200 people. It was acceptable to grind for days for a BS then because the impact on the community was much bigger. Now some of the larger ships and grander activities (such as bases) are regulated and restricted moreso than before. So now, not only are you saving up billions to fund your dreams here, but there is less to them now than there ever was. Some would argue that RP controls add to the value. Though restrictions are limitations of freedom, and is less freedom really worth more?

Mod Systems

Now chances are i'm going to get stoned for some of these suggestions, but in the end, everyone's got critics. If you have a counter argument the please voice it. I suggest the following systems should be axed from the mod:

Omega 9 - A cross roads system, what's the point?
Omicron Zeta - Too many omicrons, link delta with minor/mu
Omicron Kappa - Too many omicrons, move gammu somewhere else
Artois (or changed to have a point) - Too much gallia
Corse (or changed to have a point) - Too much gallia
Savoie (or changed to have a point) - Too much gallia
Franche-Comte (or changed to have a point) - Too much gallia
Berry - A cross roads system to make trade routes longer, re-route lyonnais to orleanais or picardy
Halle - Only pirates need to use peripheral jump hole routes, so police system here does not work.

The following system links should no longer exist:

Newcastle <-> Tau 31
Leeds <-> New London
Tau 23 <-> Kyushu
Omega 5 <-> Omega 41

My reasoning behind this is to develop bottlenecks in the universe map where players are more likely to meet and interact. Right now the map is so interconnected there are up to six different routes to get in and out of house space through a single system. Why is Omega 9 there? It interconnects nearly every omega around it to the end of merely extending the time it takes to traverse the omegas. Get rid of it.

By cutting Newcastle <-> T31 and Leeds <-> NL you are generating more of a reason for GRN, BAF and LN to engage in dundee, manchester and magellan. Blockade runners now have more of a challenge as activity will be higher there, maybe in response to them. Getting rid of T23 <-> Kyushu will give players more of a reason to enter kusari through tottori; giving more opportunities for interaction with the hogs and farmers, and an overall reason for activity in those systems. O5 <-> O41 eliminates the need for hessians and corsairs to pass through O11. Cut it, activity there will spike, and the RM will have something to do.

Now I appreciate you for reading through my torrent of what may seem like opinionated waffle. My main idea driving all this is the theory of 'less is more'. Condensing certain aspects of the mod and server would not be a bad thing at this point as there is simply so much content to manage.

Please discuss.

And cheers for taking the time, have a sabre -

RE: Alternative Options - Crackling - 05-23-2015

Quote:Above is a classic example of a contradiction of statements. Some would argue that freelancers cannot commit any unlawful action, and yet freelancers are able to carry out any bounty contract. Which is correct? Meanwhile people are getting heckled and upset because these statements are being either misinterpreted or manipulated.

What is wrong with "except as described above"?

Quote:The following system links should no longer exist:

Newcastle <-> Tau 31
Leeds <-> New London

So people will need to go T-31>Leeds>Dublin(or Manchester) to carry prohibited goods in New London? Flying the whole system to get to JHs, with a very high risk to be caught by Gallic Navy? Oh, you can fly 30k above the plane, but this doesn't give so much activity anyway.

RE: Alternative Options - Ash - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:28 PM)Crackling Wrote: What is wrong with "except as described above"?

That going after an unlawful bounty contract could encompass any number of unlawful actions all in the name of claiming an unlawful bounty.

(05-23-2015, 04:28 PM)Crackling Wrote: So people will need to go T-31>Leeds>Dublin(or Manchester) to carry prohibited goods in New London? Flying the whole system to get to JHs, with a very high risk to be caught by Gallic Navy? Oh, you can fly 30k above the plane, but this doesn't give so much activity anyway.

The idea is that it spurs activity. Where is the challenge in smuggling through a system that is empty? It's not really smuggling if there is nobody around to catch you.

RE: Alternative Options - TheSauron - 05-23-2015

Both ID examples you used are invalid. You misunderstood them completly.

Freelancer ID Wrote:Freelancers are people not affiliated with any faction in particular. They generally operate independent trade ships or small ships. They sometimes act as mercenaries, but mostly just explore Sirius, taking the odd job here or there to pay for fuel and supplies.

Pilot carrying this quasi-lawful ID is a Freelancer, who:

Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect an friendly or allied ship.
Can fulfill any bounty and escort contracts, and may treat transports as combat targets when executing a bounty or escort contract against them.
Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo, except for the Pirate Train.
Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.

Which means that you cannot commit any ulawful actions EXCEPT those listed above.

LWB ID Wrote:The LWB is a terrorist faction who wish to rid Planet Stuttgart of Synthfood influences. They frequently attack Synthfood ships and any ships carrying Synthfood products.

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the LWB, who:

Can attack any ships within their Zone of Influence, except transports.
Can demand cargo and credits from any ship within their Zone of Influence, and attack them if they do not comply.
Can attack Synthfoods anywhere.
Can treat any ship carrying Synth Paste or Synth Gel as combat targets.
Cannot ally with any lawfuls.
Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.

Zone of Influence: Rheinland, systems directly bordering Rheinland

It clearly states that only Synthfoods can be attacked by LWB anywhere, even outside of their ZoI.
It also says that LWB can shoot any ship CARRYING Paste or Gel. Not anything else.
Also, first two lines. They are present in any unlawful ID and mean that this ID allows you to pirate everything, but you can only engage non-transports without issuing a demand.

There are no contradictions in those IDs. You based your post on your own misunderstanding of what is written there. It even looks like you just took few lines from the IDs without looking at the whole context.

RE: Alternative Options - Crackling - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:38 PM)Ash Wrote:
(05-23-2015, 04:28 PM)Crackling Wrote: What is wrong with "except as described above"?

That going after an unlawful bounty contract could encompass any number of unlawful actions all in the name of claiming an unlawful bounty.

Which? What can you do except shooting target?

(05-23-2015, 04:38 PM)Ash Wrote:
(05-23-2015, 04:28 PM)Crackling Wrote: So people will need to go T-31>Leeds>Dublin(or Manchester) to carry prohibited goods in New London? Flying the whole system to get to JHs, with a very high risk to be caught by Gallic Navy? Oh, you can fly 30k above the plane, but this doesn't give so much activity anyway.

The idea is that it spurs activity. Where is the challenge in smuggling through a system that is empty? It's not really smuggling if there is nobody around to catch you.

Then people will fly 30k above the plane, while hating devs for deleting these connections.

RE: Alternative Options - Ash - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:39 PM)TheSauron Wrote: Both ID examples you used are invalid. You misunderstood them completly.

Freelancer ID Wrote:Freelancers are people not affiliated with any faction in particular. They generally operate independent trade ships or small ships. They sometimes act as mercenaries, but mostly just explore Sirius, taking the odd job here or there to pay for fuel and supplies.

Pilot carrying this quasi-lawful ID is a Freelancer, who:

Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect an friendly or allied ship.
Can fulfill any bounty and escort contracts, and may treat transports as combat targets when executing a bounty or escort contract against them.
Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo, except for the Pirate Train.
Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.

Which means that you cannot commit any ulawful actions EXCEPT those listed above.

I have already been over this point in my last post.

(05-23-2015, 04:39 PM)TheSauron Wrote:
LWB ID Wrote:The LWB is a terrorist faction who wish to rid Planet Stuttgart of Synthfood influences. They frequently attack Synthfood ships and any ships carrying Synthfood products.

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the LWB, who:

Can attack any ships within their Zone of Influence, except transports.
Can demand cargo and credits from any ship within their Zone of Influence, and attack them if they do not comply.
Can attack Synthfoods anywhere.
Can treat any ship carrying Synth Paste or Synth Gel as combat targets.
Cannot ally with any lawfuls.
Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.

Zone of Influence: Rheinland, systems directly bordering Rheinland

If you read what I had commented then you would have understood that there is a contradiction as to where their ZoI is. If they have interests to chase synth foods half way to gallia, then why do they even have a ZoI? The problem is that this leads to confusion as you and I have already quite clearly demonstrated.

RE: Alternative Options - Ash - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:45 PM)Crackling Wrote: Which? What can you do except shooting target?

Chase the target to guard system (unlawful), shoot the target in a NFZ (unlawful), disrupt a trade lane to catch them (unlawful), resist arrest upon success (also unlawful) shal I go on? If a freelancer is mindful of these actions they cannot by all means chase an unlawful bounty under almost any circumstance. Yet, the presence of this statement leads one to believe they can.

(05-23-2015, 04:45 PM)Crackling Wrote: Then people will fly 30k above the plane, while hating devs for deleting these connections.

People already do that. This is irrelevent.

RE: Alternative Options - Crackling - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:52 PM)Ash Wrote:
(05-23-2015, 04:45 PM)Crackling Wrote: Which? What can you do except shooting target?

Chase the target to guard system (unlawful), shoot the target in a NFZ (unlawful), disrupt a trade lane to catch them (unlawful), resist arrest upon success (also unlawful) shal I go on? If a freelancer is mindful of these actions they cannot by all means chase an unlawful bounty under any circumstances. Yet, the presence of this statement leads one to believe they can.

Well, may be it says about things which are "unlawful" by themselves? Like openly opening fire on targets? Or pirating them? Also, never saw anyone being sanctioned for shooting trade lane with FL ID... And carrying cardamine is unlawful too. Is it prohibited too then?

RE: Alternative Options - Ash - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 04:57 PM)Crackling Wrote: Well, may be it says about things which are "unlawful" by themselves? Like openly opening fire on targets? Or pirating them? Also, never saw anyone being sanctioned for shooting trade lane with FL ID... And carrying cardamine is unlawful too. Is it prohibited too then?

I respect your point of view but you need to think a little bit more down the line. Discovery is definitely not black and white. People don't get sanctioned for shooting a TL no, though here is a scenario:

FL shoots trade lane
Copper sees that as an unlawful act
Tries to interact with FL as an unlawful target (to arrest/fine etc)
FL is now labelled as an unlawful

These little situations can escalate quickly into things that are far bigger than the initial event, usually with someone getting killed.

RE: Alternative Options - Crackling - 05-23-2015

(05-23-2015, 05:04 PM)Ash Wrote:
(05-23-2015, 04:57 PM)Crackling Wrote: Well, may be it says about things which are "unlawful" by themselves? Like openly opening fire on targets? Or pirating them? Also, never saw anyone being sanctioned for shooting trade lane with FL ID... And carrying cardamine is unlawful too. Is it prohibited too then?

I respect your point of view but you need to think a little bit more down the line. Discovery is definitely not black and white. People don't get sanctioned for shooting a TL no, though here is a scenario:

FL shoots trade lane
Copper sees that as an unlawful act
Tries to interact with FL as an unlawful target (to arrest/fine etc)
FL is now labelled as an unlawful

These little situations can escalate quickly into things that are far bigger than the initial event, usually with someone getting killed.

Nothing bad in it. He can insult police inRP, refuse to pay fine and be engaged too, no? Almost the same thing. And I think you can do that.