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+---- Thread: Snub cloaks (/showthread.php?tid=131836)
Snub cloaks - Corile - 07-22-2015
![[Image: HcOdQjF.png]](http://i.imgur.com/HcOdQjF.png)
Seriously.
This is what a snub cloak really is. It gets you out for free from an engagement, and any engagement at that. You just need to wait for your shield to be shot down, press the button and hope that during the next 3 seconds you're not shot with a CD (which is really not hard). And then what? You're out. You're on your merry way to the closest neutral base and (most likely) going to restock and maybe even engage again, with full reload.
It wouldn't be that big of a problem... except that killing people in Disco is already hard enough. Finding an enjoyable fight with the currently rather low server population is challenging because it's either a rather boring furball or a gank. And even if you can get into a 1v1, the density of solar objects is so high that running away from such fight is still laughably easy.
And possibly the worst part of this are bombers. A fighter-bomber or bomber-bomber engagement is always a risk. You can minimise that risk by starting to run away and hope to reach a friendly base (which is not difficult considering the bombers rather high armor, provided you're not a total trash at dodging) or you can pick up a fight and try to shoot the other person. It requires skill and luck, but if the enemy dies they drop all the ammo and reloads, so you're fully restocked and ready to go. Also such engagements can be won at any point, unlike fighter-fighter engagements, when if the enemy has 40 bots and you have 10, you've basically lost. The problem is - if you have a cloak, you get the best of both worlds. You still have a chance at instakilling the other guy AND almost 100% chance of escape.
But you can say that "hey, but you can still cd him". Except, the only window for CD that you have is 3 seconds long. Implying that you fire a CD every three seconds you have about three and a half minutes of constant cloak disruption. Sounds good? Except the problem is, sometimes the CD won't track (you know, that bug when you have to select an NPC and select your target back). Or you're in an asteroid field, and the CD doesn't work properly. What then? It's a very difficult thing to pull off and you have to keep executing it perfectly for three minutes or until you kill that guy. And if it takes you more than three minutes, you've failed, because you've run out of ammo.
But you can say that cloak disruptors were implemented for this issue. The problem with those is - they are not a good solution to the problem. Cloaking devices aren't common enough to justify buying that stuff for a fighter. They also are more expensive than a cloak itself, so it's just not a worthwhile investment.
I see two simple solutions to the problem. The first one is a proper telegraph that someone's cloak started charging, be it with a hook message, large red lights glowing on their ship or whatever. The thing is, that information has to be independent from the ship's status. Currently that information is done with a shield going down. Except when the shield is already down, there is no telling if the cloak is charging or not.
The second, in my opinion better, way to do this is to have the ship sit perfectly still or have negative speed for three seconds while the cloak is charging. It still allows for an escape from a fight if you get far enough but also leaves you open for snacs, minirazors, nukes, torps and whatnot for that short period of time. You can also try to get far enough to charge the cloak this way.
Discuss.
RE: Snub cloaks - nOmnomnOm - 07-22-2015
Um no.... CDs dont fire every 3 seconds....
Plus this is not only a PvP server.
RE: Snub cloaks - Traxit - 07-22-2015
(07-22-2015, 03:08 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: Plus this is not only a PvP server.
That's not the point, PvP is a huge aspect of this server, if you want to RP-only don't even engage or go out of bases at all.
RE: Snub cloaks - nOmnomnOm - 07-22-2015
So what is the actual reason that you don't like people that cloak?
Blues are not everything.
I wouldn't mind when i shoot someone to have them cloak away. Whatever. I am alive and that is what matters.
RE: Snub cloaks - Traxit - 07-22-2015
(07-22-2015, 03:14 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: So what is the actual reason that you don't like people that cloak?
Blues are not everything.
I wouldn't mind when i shoot someone to have them cloak away. Whatever. I am alive and that is what matters.
The actual reason is displayed in the wall of text protege posted.
Yes, blues aren't everything, but they are mandatory to some roleplay, you can't roleplay the strongest military when you're getting destroyed in in-game PvP.
And in that situation, where your opponent runs away cloaking, you being alive isn't what matters, because clearly you outmatch him, so that doesn't mean you should be afraid for your life. what matters is a Blue to prove you're better than your opponent and next time he shouldn't provoke you, that avoids PvP situations better than letting someone cloak away and have him think he had a bad day in PvP and he'll get you next time.
RE: Snub cloaks - Antonio - 07-22-2015
Cloak ... disruptors?
RE: Snub cloaks - Traxit - 07-22-2015
(07-22-2015, 03:24 PM)Antonio- Wrote: Cloak ... disruptors?
Have you fully read the OP?
RE: Snub cloaks - Antonio - 07-22-2015
Yeah and I fail to understand why he made a thread -now-. It's been like this for a couple of years already.
RE: Snub cloaks - Backo - 07-22-2015
PvP is bad, m'kay? This is a RP server, here we fight with long and confusing words to show our superiority over the enemy!
Also a FLHook text when cloaking wouldn't hurt, ye.
RE: Snub cloaks - Binski - 07-22-2015
Well I got a snub cloak just cuz I'm too used to throwing the switch myself on just about anything I fly. Personally, I think the snub cloak is a little much. However, there has to be some line drawn where you must acknowledge that the cloaks lose all practicality very quickly the harder we make them operate. Longer charge times mean they're more and more useless. Escape and ambush, and spying should all be viable options with cloaks, as that is their point. So honestly, I don't even think snubs should have cloaks. They're totally not necessary, as snubs are small, fast and highly manoeverable. It really is too easy with a cloak on there too that gives you 2 mins with 3 sec charge time. Before it was 1 min max if you arranged your armor right, and only on a bomber, not a fighter or any other little craft.
As for the operation of cloaks, I still see the battteries as fuel as a total ridiculous and OP mode of operating. We went from cloaks being 'rare' and unique, being linked to the need to have nomad tech involved to build them, to living in a world where every station, military, corporate or civilian, all have 'batteries' to power these devices you can't even buy on NPC stations. Since when does all of sirius now appeal to cloakers? When I started using them, I saw the problems you needed to work out. I spent months 'discovering' where all of the best fuel sell points were (mox) and even hfuel, which wasn't as good but enough to keep you going. I created a base to provide my own refuel point. I rp'd to get access to POB's that would sell MOX, and made note of POB's that were open to dock, that sold fuel. After more than a year of a highly thought out and mapped system of knowing what my best ports to hang around (or fall back on) were, the system was ripped up, forced to be changed to a fuel that is now easy to get in cheap infinite quantities, which is the total opposite as before. You had to work at it before, and for snubs not every base offered hfuel or mox, you had to really think about what you were doing, and make sure you save your cloak fuel for that one time you might need it. Now, people can cloak all the time, and just need to get to the next base to go at it again with the same fuel and rate of consumption every time. Not much challenge to that.
The old system actually made you have to value your cloak ability, and save it for when you need it. If you went to an unfamiliar area, you could learn about what bases offered what, and arrange your flight routines around that. You saved your fuel for the right time, and made your way back to the right port. Its totally opposite now, shorter cloak times (which was not necessary for most cloaks at the time), but plentiful fuel 'batteries' that make it easy for anyone with a cloak to dock anywhere and be able to go at it again. Its a nice 'convenience' but i was already working hard to keep up and have my stuff together, when it all became useless, because people were getting isnta'd in battleships (like that's so terrible and happens so often), or getting spied on by liners, which was also not the worst thing. Ironically, Cloak Disruptors finally being available, would have solved both problems for the groups/players most concerned with those uses (no i don't see them as 'abuses' since players were simply following the parameters laid out by the game mechanics).
The other fun part that is now gone is that every ship had a different cloak time. You could never know exactly how long your enemy might be able to cloak for. It depended on their ship class, armor and cargo held. A frieghter or transport could juggle their ability to get longer time, or sacrifice cloak time, based on their unique needs and perspective. Now, I see a ship, and notice it has a cloak, I know exactly how long I have to hold out to beat them, and vice versa, simply by knowing what class of ship they fly.
Although I know the new system was meant to help non cloakers and curb trolling, imo, all it did was removed a lot of the freedom we enjoyed in customizing our ships and their abilities, and added a blanket of OP batteries everywhere that cloaks are not even sold. We had a great system, if you wanted to be a cloaker, you sacrificed cargo space, and had to be selective about its use. That was fair balance. Not to mention, fuel actually had market value for use on ships, not just bases, and you could actually attack NPC's in game to refuel yourself in space! Now that was fun, and sometimes even a cause for interaction and RP!
EDIT: as to a notification that as ship is cloaking, i don't see that as necessary. You already can see that when shields drop, that's just too easy. What we need is a less OP system altogether. Or would you like a notification when we have to go to the toilet as well?