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+--- Thread: Making snubs more appealing (/showthread.php?tid=133884)
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Jack_Henderson - 12-15-2015
(12-15-2015, 02:08 PM)Haste Wrote: This illustrates my opinion pretty well:
[13:52:42] Haste: In general the bomber class is extremely limited and bland atm while it's one that should see a lot of use in a server filled with cap and gb spam
[13:53:02] Haste: Giving it more love might see more people climbing into the natural counter, fighters, as well
There are quite a few plans to do this in the works.
As for fighter-versus-capital balance, I don't think it's very far off as it is. Make fighters better against capitals and bombers have no reason to exist. Make fighters worse and you make capitals/GBs - that already offer more value-per-player, if we're perfectly honest - even more appealing to the average player.
Fighters have a really good niche already which is taking on other fighters and bombers. It's just that without a good pool of bombers to shoot at, there's very little reason to grab a fighter. I think addressing that "issue" will increase the number of fighters we see zipping around.
There are also some plans in the works to create more interesting loadout options for the various fighter types, and you should see more of those plans soon. It's quite likely the whole "noobtube argument" will be addressed by that as well.
You have a fair point, and I think the general concept might work, but imo there is one mistake/oversight in there:
The gunboat is the counter to bombers and fighter and literally just everything.
Fixing things has to start with gunboats or how you can kill GBs. Bombers are not a choice against GBs.
You have to be good to hit GBs with snacs at all, and you bleed (Cerbs atm, normally Solaris) and/or die very very fast (razors).
Once bombers can pew also gunboats you can expect a rise in bomber population.
IMG used to counter gb and upwards with bomber swarms, but with the changes in GBs that made them more dangerous from version to version, the bomber has become nothing but food for everything except for the few players that actually are good and can hit with snacs.
I hope you plan works because it would be awesome to see changes that make bombers more useful and therefore also make snubs in general more attractive again.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Lythrilux - 12-15-2015
Before I make a suggestion, is it possible at all to have guns that can only damage a certain shipclass?
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Riess - 12-15-2015
(12-15-2015, 03:01 PM)LordVipex Wrote: What if I told you that newer players do not care as much about blues as you seemingly do. The point is that caps allow unskilled players to survive and fight without risking to be instantly ravaged by just about anything. And by not dying 20 seconds into the fight, they can have more fun in caps than in snubs at much less effort and time required. They have 'earned' the large ship not by practice, but with trading. If it's more fun, then sure. I'm the last person that would force players into a role/shipclass anyway.
But thats wrong because apparently those people should "stop being salty" about it and actually learn to enjoy being blown up after 20 seconds of fight in which they did no damage to opponent, and start from there by "getting gut" instead of being loosers avoiding fights altogether or going for caps. I mean, you are obliged to have fun in PvP in this way and this way only, and god forbid you from moving on to other games. Get gut or remain bluemsg forever...
Which I guess would suit plenty of folk around here just fine, seeing how quickly they resort to shaming others once they leave the place where community's rules are enforced into wilderness of skypechats.
// Oh look, "get gut" fallacy appeared just as I was writing this post :] To pick from there for minute longer, I wonder how much of this "getting gut" process involves installing macros/scripts or game-file edits people are suprisingly vocal despite their status? Ah, yes, thats on skypechats, so its allright.
- - - - -
Going back to OP, I'm certain nothing will improve on the matter, to the contrary in fact. This is because PvP rebalancing in Disco moslty occurs at expense of majority, which then reduces its participation in PvP, which in result hurts that hardcore minority, making it demand more changes. Just look at the OP. This isn't first time this talk occurs. Its just another iteration of same old "too little good PvP! REBALANCE!" process that is happening for a while now, always resulting in reaching of some "acceptable middle ground" that makes part of playerbase temporarily happy with changes but eventually results in other part of playerbase making move on to greener pastures.
The PvP balance team would actually have to admit and accept that making snubs appealing to greater group of folk would have to come at cost of hardcore minority. But as "none of those things are ever really going to change", whe are left stuck in the loop.
So, see ya in few weeks in next thread.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Haste - 12-15-2015
(12-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Before I make a suggestion, is it possible at all to have guns that can only damage a certain shipclass?
Technically, yes. Is it likely to happen considering the workload just about every dev has, as well as their priorities? No. The shield damage part is "relatively" simple to do by giving a certain class of ship a certain type with weaknesses/strengths to specific other types. The hull damage part would require flhook magic which I believe Alley mentioned at some point is possible. However, as I said, I deem any of this happening anytime soon fairly implausible.
@Jack_Henderson I already elaborated a little on the bomber concepts in the pipeline on Skype, but GB-Bomber interactions are very likely to change if the Bomber class as a whole is reviewed. It'll likely all depend on loadouts on both ship classes how well they will match up, though.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Melisandre - 12-15-2015
Hi,
I am just a newbie here. Please keep that in mind.
I have an idea, about a system. It would require that specific wepon types would deal different ammounts of damage to ships based on their classes. (weapon class vs. shield class)
I noticed that shields have % based damage reduction against different types of weapons. I think it would be possible to create a system where different ship classes have class specific shields and weapons would deal reduced damage to specific ship classes based on the weapon's class. << It is possible. Already confirmed by Haste. >>
For example:
fighter class weapons would deal low (20% ??) damage against battleship's shields but they would deal 100% damage against other small crafts (fighters,bombers)
bomber class weapons would deal 100% damage against battleships but they would deal reduced (20% ??) damage to other small crafts (fighters,bombers)
I didn't list any more ship classes because I don't have much knowledge about their intended purpose and their relation to eachother.
It's really just a basic idea, but I think it has potential and experts could make the game more intereting, balanced and fun using it.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - The Savage - 12-15-2015
@Melisandre The idea is very nice, but then... it requires a lot of coding and stuff... not to mention snubs nowadays are barely able to scratch battleship, even two bombers on a single battleship isn't enough.
As for the classes, it's a pretty complicated chart. Gunboat is destined to fight snubs, which actually pretty questionable efficience nowadays. Bombers should hurt caps, battleship hurt battleships and destroyers, destroyers to hunt gunboats and gunboats to hurt bombers and fighters (and other gunboats).
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Pavel - 12-15-2015
Look, it's this thread again.
Always when this is posted, we have some more or less known snub pvpers posing as public opinion, and we have some average people with whom I agree, in this case: Spazzy, Vipex and Riess.
I don't believe any major changes (or any at all) will happen, because the OP clearly said in the starting post snubs will remain difficult and much skill, practice-dependant to fly. Imo that's the root of the problem, however such announcements effectively make this thread pointless (also a big kek).
Riess accurately noticed, people responsible for snub balance happen to be snub aces. Either that minority stops caring about own group and makes fighter pvp more accesible for masses, or the masses, me among them, will instictively keep boycotting this flawed rugged aspect of disco's pvp.
Well, as others already said, I find it no fun to die to some guy who has much more free time for practice than I do, or to a cheater, and to post later that forced "gg" when in reality it wasn't gg, because you were an easy frag who couldn't even hit back properly that fast turning dude.
What? You say it makes people leave Disco and play something else? Too bad, sucks to be this game and let it die.
It's the game's job to interest and attract me, not the other way around.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Swallow - 12-15-2015
Aaand, did we decide something? Was the point of the thread met? Conclusions?
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Jack_Henderson - 12-16-2015
(12-15-2015, 11:54 PM)Swallow Wrote: Aaand, did we decide something? Was the point of the thread met? Conclusions?
Haste has a plan.
From what he mentioned, it could work.
The rest will have to be seen.
RE: Making snubs more appealing - Hidamari - 12-16-2015
(12-15-2015, 04:52 PM)Haste Wrote:(12-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Before I make a suggestion, is it possible at all to have guns that can only damage a certain shipclass?
Technically, yes. Is it likely to happen considering the workload just about every dev has, as well as their priorities? No. The shield damage part is "relatively" simple to do by giving a certain class of ship a certain type with weaknesses/strengths to specific other types. The hull damage part would require flhook magic which I believe Alley mentioned at some point is possible. However, as I said, I deem any of this happening anytime soon fairly implausible.
@Jack_Henderson I already elaborated a little on the bomber concepts in the pipeline on Skype, but GB-Bomber interactions are very likely to change if the Bomber class as a whole is reviewed. It'll likely all depend on loadouts on both ship classes how well they will match up, though.
this reminds me of a thread i made which everyone pretty much ignored. which got purged in the server rewind. im going to post it again now.