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+--- Thread: On the subject of Cryer ID. (/showthread.php?tid=140681)
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On the subject of Cryer ID. - Corile - 06-29-2016
We've had over two months (86 days) since the utterly idiotic change to evaluate it and from our experience it hasn't changed anything apart from being a horrible inconvenience and discouragement from playing Disco. And even after pretty significant backlash from the community, the changes were kept. The admins used the argument that we can of course adjust our RP and our faction to the new changes and if we are truly dedicated Cryer players then we can work with the change.
Let me first start with how Wisp was created and what were the motives for it. Myself and @Cashew started the faction in November of 2015 so as to provide some sort of RP and gameplay counterweight to the Outcasts. RP- and lorewise, Outcasts have a large network of Cardamine smuggling, allies in almost every corner of Sirius, as well as the Orange Treaty and other such roleplay concepts. Gameplay-wise, Outcast ID is the single most overpowered unlawful ID in the game with ZoI that encompasses roughly 80(!!!!!!) systems, access to Battleships, 5kers and at least three above average contraband traderoutes. The reason why Outcast ID is not used by every single pirate in Liberty, Bretonia and Kusari is because the local factions have single, small, gameplay things that make them better in their respective regions. Rogues and Mollys have Scyllas, Gaians have friendly Corsairs, Kusari has pirate factions that can dock on half the lawful bases because Samura.
If on the other hand you look at the most overpowered corporate ID - which in my opinion is already mentioned Samura - you'll see some similarities. RP-wise it is neutral with every single House as well as the Corsairs. It can mine (even though the ores it has aren't the best), it has access to numerous traderoutes without docking restrictions as well as 5kers. And similarly, you can see why some local corporations have slight edge over them in their local field. Libertonian corps can mine Platinum, which is better, ALG, GMG and IMG have better ores. Cryer used to have the odd little line which allowed them to attack Cardamine-associated factions. Without it, it loses in pretty much every regard to Samura - it can't mine, it has only two viable traderoutes and its faction commodities are awfully sub-par. Additionally, it's constrained to Liberty without having any of the benefits of the Big Three corporations and the thing that it can do inside Liberty - interdict Cardamine - is much easier and much more effective on other IDs (like LPI, due to the usage of TLAGSNET and the ability to iRP fly Defiants).
Cashew came up with the line of roleplay which joined several things that we wanted to work on. Firstly, the gameplay loop of interdicting Cardamine as it was at the time one of the most popular smuggling commodities and shooting the Cardamine-associated factions. Secondly, the science roleplay that could provide interesting concepts and products that anyone can use to enhance their own roleplay. And finally, to provide a Cryer faction that was open to interaction and had a shot at being official.
All of the above dependent on one another. A shot at being official meant we need to have activity. To have activity we had to have something to do to keep our members interested. To keep our members interested, we had to have a way to shoot people (because doing the same traderoute for three months gets boring). And to make a difference with our roleplay and actual lore input we had to be official, which closes the circle.
To keep players interested in a faction, they also need to get a benefit of playing it. In the current day of Disco most of the actually lore-unique factions have negligible playerbases because they don't offer any gameplay or RP benefits. Taking away the ability to pvp removed an important link from that Wisp circle. It removed the main thing that made players interested in the faction, which in turn led to them being inactive, which in turn led to us not getting officialdom, which in turn prevented us from making any significant changes to the lore and to have the positive impact on other people's roleplay that we hoped to achieve.
Wisp is currently the only Cryer faction on the server and we have been denied officialdom due to a frankly petty reason, however I don't believe we would be interested in it anyway after the changes had not been reverted. After the change I stepped down from being the 1iC (that position was assumed by @Yak who is currently AWOL) so as to only focus solely on the RP that I was interested in, why I founded the faction and why after the ID changes much of it has become impossible to execute under the ID.
In the meantime the system developers have added a Cryer base in Omicron-91, which to me looked just like a poor attempt at throwing us a bone. That base was completely useless and uninteresting and after I asked @Teerin about it, the suggestions that we had were dismissed because "there isn't an official faction so we'll do stuff our way".
Due to the ID changes and because of the fact that I really wanted to continue the RP that I had started with Wisp, I decided to circumvent the change by retagging our fighters from the [W] tag to <F~, accompanied with the ID change to Freelancer. We registered on several bounty boards near the places we were flying before and continued with doing our regular stuff. I continued my personal roleplay and everything was "fine", until today I had a realisation.
Before the ID changes Wisp was doing solid 1-2 days of activity every month across 5 active members. Right now, at the end of the month, we have hardly any activity, which either way comes from afk trading supplies for our POB. We have no actual in-game presence because it stopped to matter. Before we would log our fighters just for the sake of logging them. We hoped to find a pew, but more often than not encountered friendly factions that we could talk to and have fun interactions with. But now we don't, because people aren't interested. The only way of gaining activity right now is to trade, and as Cryer we only have access to sub-par commodities like Stabiline and Synthetic Marijuana that are only viable on two traderoutes.
The activity that we have fun doing can't be done any more on Cryer IDs so we have to use Freelancer. That adds a layer of division and makes me question why even bother with Cryer now? It's just a liability in the form of an useless ID. Why even log a corporation for the benefit of others if I can just fly a Freelancer and fly for myself?
That question is now sitting in my mind and I honestly cannot find a good answer to it. And it is a question which I don't believe the admins even bothered to think about when they introduced the changes.
I first meant to post this thread in the Player requests, but considering that in my experience they aren't much different than Orwellian memory holes I decided to make it public.
Discuss.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Lythrilux - 06-29-2016
Wisp just became the newest Staff punching bag, and the Cryer faction as a whole was affected as a result. Both the ID nerf and the denial of officialdom was absolutely absurd, and was the product of backdoor, biased, pandering done via manipulative player requests. Wisp was a good faction. The Cryer ID was a good ID. Both mistakes should be reverted.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Antonio - 06-29-2016
This points out the flaws of Freelancer ID even more, and is another reason on the already-long list which explains why the Freelancer ID is way too good at the moment.
As for the Cryer ID change, I've already stated my opinion in the original thread.
(04-04-2016, 03:48 PM)Antonio Wrote: Unnecessary and undeserved. Should've removed the Hackers and Rogues line only, and see how it goes from there instead of nuking it all at once.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - n00bl3t - 06-29-2016
I don't know about backroom deals and drama behind it and so on, but removing an interesting take on the Cryer faction (which I don't think has ever seen much long-term activity) seems like an odd step to take. I hope the post explaining why this happened is well thought out. Haste's responses in the original thread struck me as generally dismissive by proposing to move in-game activity (PVP) into what is predominantly a forum activity of roleplaying out disease outbreaks which isn't as entertaining online. Past that, the general tone of the thread seemed to disagree with the change and there seemed to be no great justification for killing off interesting activity.
Also, now I know why Samura is so active.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Shryke - 06-29-2016
Ah yes, the fundamental problem with Disco rears it's ugly head again.
Instead of the mod growing through the RP contributions of its playerbase, the playerbase is expected to change and adapt to the actions of a select few.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Sanctions - 06-29-2016
Agree. What'd you expect from the people who managed to turn a 255/255 server into what it is now? Understanding? Nah.
Also, hands off FL ID! It's quite balanced as it is at the moment.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - aerelm - 06-29-2016
I wholeheartedly agree. The issue was never the Cryer ID, but a particular player or two abusing it for their personal grudges. Admins at the time should've just left the Cryer ID the way it was and banned those players instead. That would've been a far better solution than the route they took.
Good thing is, it's still not too late to fix that. I hope admins revert the ID, perma those players, and make Discovery great again!
Good thing is, it's still not too late to fix that. I hope admins revert the ID, perma those players, and make Discovery great again!
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Ramke - 06-29-2016
I'll just go ahead and throw my thoughts in on this, as I've been a main player and a faction leader of the faction that opposes Cryer. For the sake of just discussing the issue with the ID, I'll avoid mentioning that every other faction with the same members as Cryer has acted near identical.
(06-29-2016, 03:05 PM)Corile Wrote: We've had over two months (86 days) since the utterly idiotic change to evaluate it and from our experience it hasn't changed anything apart from being a horrible inconvenience and discouragement from playing Disco. And even after pretty significant backlash from the community, the changes were kept. The admins used the argument that we can of course adjust our RP and our faction to the new changes and if we are truly dedicated Cryer players then we can work with the change.
First of all, the changes were brought for a reason. Idiotic is a point of view, and certainly not reflecting the entire playerbase. The "significant" backlash (which, as far as I remember, just a certain someone PMing others on Skype telling them to complain because they're friends) was also countered by the fact that many others were saying "good riddance".
(06-29-2016, 03:05 PM)Corile Wrote: Let me first start with how Wisp was created and what were the motives for it. Myself and @Cashew started the faction in November of 2015 so as to provide some sort of RP and gameplay counterweight to the Outcasts. RP- and lorewise, Outcasts have a large network of Cardamine smuggling, allies in almost every corner of Sirius, as well as the Orange Treaty and other such roleplay concepts. Gameplay-wise, Outcast ID is the single most overpowered unlawful ID in the game with ZoI that encompasses roughly 80(!!!!!!) systems, access to Battleships, 5kers and at least three above average contraband traderoutes. The reason why Outcast ID is not used by every single pirate in Liberty, Bretonia and Kusari is because the local factions have single, small, gameplay things that make them better in their respective regions. Rogues and Mollys have Scyllas, Gaians have friendly Corsairs, Kusari has pirate factions that can dock on half the lawful bases because Samura.
If on the other hand you look at the most overpowered corporate ID - which in my opinion is already mentioned Samura - you'll see some similarities. RP-wise it is neutral with every single House as well as the Corsairs. It can mine (even though the ores it has aren't the best), it has access to numerous traderoutes without docking restrictions as well as 5kers. And similarly, you can see why some local corporations have slight edge over them in their local field. Libertonian corps can mine Platinum, which is better, ALG, GMG and IMG have better ores. Cryer used to have the odd little line which allowed them to attack Cardamine-associated factions. Without it, it loses in pretty much every regard to Samura - it can't mine, it has only two viable traderoutes and its faction commodities are awfully sub-par. Additionally, it's constrained to Liberty without having any of the benefits of the Big Three corporations and the thing that it can do inside Liberty - interdict Cardamine - is much easier and much more effective on other IDs (like LPI, due to the usage of TLAGSNET and the ability to iRP fly Defiants).
There are many "overpowered" IDs, but, at least to me, I don't think the ID rules are why people choose to play a certain faction. Most advantageous trading factions aren't active. Navy factions are much more common than police ones. Each faction has their own lore, each has their own niche, gameplay perspectives, interactions. It's better to look at the roleplay that an ID offers rather that of exclusively PvP - and Cryer is certainly one of the ones that belong at the top of corporate factions.
I can't help but find this as a prelude to saying "we can't hunt outcasts and their friends anymore, so this faction has absolutely shit rules and isn't worth playing anymore".
(06-29-2016, 03:05 PM)Corile Wrote: All of the above dependent on one another. A shot at being official meant we need to have activity. To have activity we had to have something to do to keep our members interested. To keep our members interested, we had to have a way to shoot people (because doing the same traderoute for three months gets boring). And to make a difference with our roleplay and actual lore input we had to be official, which closes the circle.
To keep players interested in a faction, they also need to get a benefit of playing it. In the current day of Disco most of the actually lore-unique factions have negligible playerbases because they don't offer any gameplay or RP benefits. Taking away the ability to pvp removed an important link from that Wisp circle. It removed the main thing that made players interested in the faction, which in turn led to them being inactive, which in turn led to us not getting officialdom, which in turn prevented us from making any significant changes to the lore and to have the positive impact on other people's roleplay that we hoped to achieve.
You still retain your original intention of the faction to interdict Cardamine, do unique roleplay and progress as a faction. To be honest, I don't see why a pharmaceutical company should have the ability to raid Omicron Alpha, the capital of a smuggling-oriented House, just to be able to survive as a faction.
Look at USI, ALG, Kruger, DSE, GMS, BMF, Bowex even. All of these corporate factions are doing well activity-wise without making ships to hound random pirate factions all around Sirius. Why can't you?
(06-29-2016, 03:05 PM)Corile Wrote: Wisp is currently the only Cryer faction on the server and we have been denied officialdom due to a frankly petty reason, however I don't believe we would be interested in it anyway after the changes had not been reverted. After the change I stepped down from being the 1iC (that position was assumed by @Yak who is currently AWOL) so as to only focus solely on the RP that I was interested in, why I founded the faction and why after the ID changes much of it has become impossible to execute under the ID.
The near pure PvP orientation of Wisp, and the complaint from every single faction that Wisp has actively hounded whenever they logged, is the major reason why the faction was denied, at least to my awareness. If you find that discouraging other factions from logging and interacting is a petty, idiotic reason, then it's no wonder the server activity isn't what it used to be.
(06-29-2016, 03:05 PM)Corile Wrote: Due to the ID changes and because of the fact that I really wanted to continue the RP that I had started with Wisp, I decided to circumvent the change by retagging our fighters from the [W] tag to <F~, accompanied with the ID change to Freelancer. We registered on several bounty boards near the places we were flying before and continued with doing our regular stuff. I continued my personal roleplay and everything was "fine", until today I had a realisation.
Before the ID changes Wisp was doing solid 1-2 days of activity every month across 5 active members. Right now, at the end of the month, we have hardly any activity, which either way comes from afk trading supplies for our POB. We have no actual in-game presence because it stopped to matter. Before we would log our fighters just for the sake of logging them. We hoped to find a pew, but more often than not encountered friendly factions that we could talk to and have fun interactions with. But now we don't, because people aren't interested. The only way of gaining activity right now is to trade, and as Cryer we only have access to sub-par commodities like Stabiline and Synthetic Marijuana that are only viable on two traderoutes.
The activity that we have fun doing can't be done any more on Cryer IDs so we have to use Freelancer. That adds a layer of division and makes me question why even bother with Cryer now? It's just a liability in the form of an useless ID. Why even log a corporation for the benefit of others if I can just fly a Freelancer and fly for myself?
Oh, this is a good one. After having abused the [hunt x anywhere] line to the point where admins had to take action, you now claim Cryer ID and the faction is absolutely useless, and created a whole different faction to follow the exact same near-PvP-exclusive aspect of the faction.
Then yes, why would you even move to create a corporate faction if you simply cannot find interest in it without farming for blues? You've already figured that issue out - just circumvent the change and play as a mercenary shooting pirates. It seems to have worked well for you so far.
At this point I'm just willing to echo Aerelm's and Sanctions' opinions - and that is a result of being a frequent player of a faction that Wisp is begging to regain the ability to hunt blues for.
--
I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue this anymore. It seems Discovery has mostly been reduced to bluemongers, elitists and all of them yelling and echoing the same thoughts because they're friends and they want to gain something out of it.
I mean sure, go on ahead, regain your rules and drive GC, outcast factions into extinction. GC saw many quit before, as a result of your past factions that behaved identical gameplay-wise.
At least you will have a reason to log for a while.
Then you'll be playing amongst yourselves.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Corile - 06-29-2016
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: For the sake of just discussing the issue with the ID, I'll avoid mentioning that every other faction with the same members as Cryer has acted near identical.Right, I would also suggest keeping away from all this "revenge faction" nonsense that has been thrown around about some of my factions (nota bene most often by people who had absolutely no contact with us before) because I have already explained time and again why this concept is ridiculous.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: The "significant" backlash (which, as far as I remember, just a certain someone PMing others on Skype telling them to complain because they're friends) was also countered by the fact that many others were saying "good riddance".Oh, the standard "skype clique" argument. Too bad it's not true.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: There are many "overpowered" IDs, but, at least to me, I don't think the ID rules are why people choose to play a certain faction.It is one of the many factors that contribute to people choosing their faction. You can of course pick a faction based purely on a single aspect of it (such as RP, gameplay or whatever) but rarely such factions ever kick off, and frankly, require a lot more work than they're worth.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: Most advantageous trading factions aren't active.BMF| - Bretonia Mining and Fabrication 6d, 13:28:45 1d, 13:37:00 7d, 00:37:04 22d, 20:24:19
Samura|- - Samura Industries 6d, 09:32:56 17:25:39 4d, 12:02:02 14d, 19:58:17
IMG| - Independent Miners Guild 6d, 04:06:41 2d, 19:06:27 11d, 17:37:24 28d, 06:43:39
DSE) - Deep Space Engineering 3d, 15:44:40 1d, 10:01:44 2d, 17:15:45 6d, 13:08:37
GMS| - Gallic Metal Service (Unofficial) 3d, 14:40:55 18:33:47 4d, 20:57:03 10d, 21:38:21
[ALG]- - ALG Waste Disposal 2d, 03:09:39 17:14:12 6d, 14:31:06 16d, 12:16:24
K.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: Navy factions are much more common than police ones.Okay, but again I never said that gameplay is the single only thing deciding whether a faction is active or not. It's one of the many things that decides about it. Also both Navy and Police have the ability to shoot criminals and enemies of their House.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: It's better to look at the roleplay that an ID offers rather that of exclusively PvP - and Cryer is certainly one of the ones that belong at the top of corporate factions.Except I honestly cannot remember when I had an unstaged RP encounter in space which didn't begin by first alt-tabbing for an hour to see if anyone comes who has the incentive to say something beyond "Greetings, pilot.". Most of the friendly RP we did and are doing were staged convoys with ourselves or allied factions as well as random, usually pre-fight conversations with friendly lawful forces. And I'm of the radical opinion that speaking to your enemy in great lengths, insulting their mothers and unravelling how you're going to disembowel them after you're done is stupid. I mean, how could I considering my character should, logically, treat them with great contempt and with the overall medieval approach to the value of human life, want to kill them as fast as possible.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: I can't help but find this as a prelude to saying "we can't hunt outcasts and their friends anymore, so this faction has absolutely ***** rules and isn't worth playing anymore".Okay, imagine a scenario. You create a faction. It's a great faction based, on, say, Junker ID. Junker ID says that you can pirate any ship outside house space, m'kay. You do your writeups, design a beautiful, Junker themed graphics suite, do months of roleplay with your allied factions in addition to pirating people. Your entire faction, your entire roleplay and gameplay is based on the fact that you are trans-sirius pirates who pirate corporations and then sell off their cargo to the highest bidder. You spend roughly a billion credits on making a fleet of pirate transports which allow you to pirate in any corner of Sirius, to ease up find someone that can be pirated during the 50-player peak times.
And then a Samura leader whines to the admins that junker id op plz nerf, they do it giving as a reason "junkers should mine scrap because they aren't pirates".
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: To be honest, I don't see why a pharmaceutical company should have the ability to raid Omicron Alpha, the capital of a smuggling-oriented House, just to be able to survive as a faction.Funnily enough, as a faction that situation occurred precisely once as we hoped to bring some activity to the at the time dying Cross. Unfortunately we were met with a herd of Ranseurs so we just kind of gave up on that. I did that on my own the second time as a response to an invitation from someone, but that was just a single Wisp ship and like seven freelancer fighters. And all of the people involved, who would have thought, said that what Cross did at the time was much worse for the overall health of the server. Gee, I wonder why.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: Look at USI, ALG, Kruger, DSE, GMS, BMF, Bowex even. All of these corporate factions are doing well activity-wise without making ships to hound random pirate factions all around Sirius. Why can't you?First, because 5/7th of those factions can mine ores, second, because the two that can't have good connection to factions that can mine ores and third, even if they don't, they still have better traderoutes than Cryer. And finally, because Wisp was not meant to be a trade faction.
(06-29-2016, 07:05 PM)Ramke Wrote: The near pure PvP orientation of Wisp* Corile looks at the 100+ posts of forum roleplay he has done.
Quote:If you find that discouraging other factions from logging and interacting is a petty, idiotic reason, then it's no wonder the server activity isn't what it used to be.I have actually made the effort to look through all of the kills (considering I document all of them, not counting self-nukes and suicides) we have done on Wisp ships before the ID has been changed. You wouldn't believe what the results are. Throughout our entire existence, we have killed one Hacker, 2 Outcasts, 4 GCs, 1 Blood Dragon, 2 Wilds and 1 Rogue. If you're telling me that killing four members of your faction is enough to discourage you from playing the game then I'm sorry but that's your own problem.
Quote:Then yes, why would you even move to create a corporate faction if you simply cannot find interest in it without farming for blues?Are you seriously that thick or have you forgotten what you (supposedly) read just three paragraphs above?
Quote:At this point I'm just willing to echo Aerelm's and Sanctions' opinionsI don't believe either of them had the opportunity to encounter Wisp ships before and I seriously doubt any of them read any of our RP so their opinion is pretty irrelevant to me.
To summarise, you've written a wall of text with an entirely false premise supported by no evidence.
RE: On the subject of Cryer ID. - Sanctions - 06-29-2016
Protege is by far not a weakling and deserves to have a faction, even if that's actually pvp-oriented. But there was enough arpee from him as well, you can't deny that.
Guy deserves better conditions for what he's done.