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Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Printable Version

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Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-10-2016

Hello, I would like to open discussion about this issue which bothers me. I know POBs are touchy subject for part of the community, but let´s keep this civil and constructive and do not derail it please. Just for the record, I do not own any POB.

So, the subject of discussion is this part of rules:
Quote:Outer Regional Space
- House Military, Police, and Intelligence factions may not enforce roleplay consequences upon non-hostile POBs, breaking House Laws or not, within Outer Regional Space.

SUMMARY:
This rule basically means that in all systems which are wrote in red, POBs are immune against lawfuls even if the base is illegal or is breaking laws in any way. Unfortunately it applies even to vital connections between houses like Omega-7, Kepler or Galileo. However, my main point is that these rules represent brutal double standard towards lawfuls and unlawfuls. Just look at the Rheinland as the finest example (I will use it because I play there the most so I know situation there the best). Rheinland lawfuls can´t regulate/destroy unwanted POBs even in systems where they have stations (Omega-7, Sigma-15=former Luneburg) or battleship (Dresden) while Red Hessians can regulate/destroy unwanted POBs in whole Rheinland, all Omegas, Cambridge, Omicron Theta and Omicron Gamma. Not to mention Corsairs - which can do the same in whole Bretonia, four Rheinland systems (funnily enough even in Dresden where Rheinland lawfuls are powerless due to rules despite it is system next to capital one) as well as all Omegas, Sigmas and Omicrons. Or winner of this contest - Outcasts, which can kill bases in THREE (!) complete houses (Kusari, Bretonia, Liberty) and all Taus, Sigmas, Omicrons, Gallic Borderworlds, Magellan, Cortez and Coronado. There is no restriction at all, they can regulate/destroy unwanted POBs for example in Pennsylvania or Texas while Liberty can´t do the same even in Bering, which is two jumps away from their capital system.

This does not sound fair, does it? Basically houses are not allowed to properly control their own territory including some vital connections while unlawful factions can field full fleets half across the Sirius from their home systems when they don´t like some POB or do not get protection money. It is simply wrong from both inRP perspective as well as ooRP one. And it is also unfair to POB owners. In border/independent worlds, they have to deal with unlawfuls (often with several ones and sometimes they are at war with each other). That´s fine, they are meant to be dangerous to some degree. But in house space, which by its nature should be safer place, they have to deal with majority of these entities in very same way but on top of that they also have to deal with house lawfuls and follow the laws.

By the way, please don´t bring the flimsy justification that "houses can´t fully control their borderworlds" which I heard from some when current rules were introduced. First, how it comes that houses can´t control their borderworlds, but unlawfuls can freely have control even heart of capital system (all they need is to log in numbers massive enough) or systems which lies completely on the other side of Sirius? And second, at this moment due to current rules setup, completely nonsene situations may happen. Anyone can for example make a base in Omega-7 next to RFP station, name it "Cardamine Shipping Inc." and then really start selling cardamine. Or construct "Fighters Against Corrupted Stupid Chancellor HG" base next to Stuttgart jumpgate where they will offer money for RM/RFP pilots. Or "Die King Charles Die - Dead Royals Storage" doing the same next to GRN battleship in Provence, to bring example from some other house. In all cases, nothing can be done about it by lawfuls. Again, wrong from both inRP as well as ooRP perspective.



SUGGESTIONS:
Now, to be constructive, I will start with some suggestions. Though maybe someone will bring something better, that´s why I posted it openly instead of sending it through player request to admins. Anyway, two basic options in my opinion are:

1. Remove restrictions of house lawfuls and let them regulate POBs in their whole ZOI fully again.
Actually it still won´t be fair completely, what stems from huge difference between house lawfuls ZOIs and some unlawfuls ZOIs (see above), but still better than what we have now.


or

2. Keep "safe zones" in houses´ borderworlds, but then balance it
If admins/community really thinks that we need POBs protected from house laws and lawfuls in their borderworlds, then only fair way how to balance it is to create also safe zones where POBs will be protected from unlawfuls. After all, how much sense it makes when Rheinland law enforcers can´t control and keep clean vital trade route to Bretonia, but Hessians can freely kill base next to planet New Berlin which is supposed to be the most heavily protected place? If lawfuls are not allowed to control borderworlds/independent worlds, then unlawfuls should not be allowed to "control" capital house space, or more likely all core house space (see sovereign house space = blue names in rules).

Though to bring at least some RP sense into it, protection should not apply in close proximity of the public areas or bases. Thus rules could look like this:

Sovereign House Space
- Unlawful and Quasi-lawful factions may not enforce roleplay consequences upon non-hostile POBs, cooperating with them or not, within House Capital Systems/Sovereign House Space. This does not apply to area of 15 kilometers around Unlawful and Quasi-lawful bases.

Outer Regional Space
- House Military, Police, and Intelligence factions may not enforce roleplay consequences upon non-hostile POBs, breaking House Laws or not, within Outer Regional Space. This does not apply to area of 15 kilometers around lawful and corporate bases, trade lanes and jump gates.


Let the discussion begin.




Your requested changes to the poll were implemented. ~Spuddy


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - SkyNet - 09-10-2016

I fully agree with you. This rule did more harm than good and caused too many weird situations. Purge it.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - nOmnomnOm - 09-10-2016

The update of the rule was done for a reason.
You must first respect that reason before you try to update further.
As of now, I do not like your options and only agree in some situations with your post.
I vote to keep it as it is unless a 'better' system is proposed (which to me has not happened yet)
Conflict of interest: I own PoB


Edit: Your argument seems to rely on the point that unlawfuls can do more than lawfuls.
If that is the case then change the things for unlawfuls, but don't go backtracking and hoping it will "fix" the problem.
It wont. Why? Becasue the problems that lead to the changes that are now would come back into effect.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-10-2016

(09-10-2016, 02:42 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: The update of the rule was done for a reason.
You must first respect that reason before you try to update further.
As of now, I do not like your options and only agree in some situations with your post.
I vote to keep it as it is unless a 'better' system is proposed (which to me has not happened yet)
Conflict of interest: I own PoB


Edit: Your argument seems to rely on the point that unlawfuls can do more than lawfuls.
If that is the case then change the things for unlawfuls, but don't go backtracking and hoping it will "fix" the problem.
It wont. Why? Becasue the problems that lead to the changes that are now would come back into effect.
But this is what option 2 is about. The reason you speak about is respected there. Border/independent worlds will stay unregulated except small area where things should be controlled inRP. Maybe the controlled area can be even smaller (10K around space traffic objects). I guess no one wants bases inside trade lanes or in NPC base undocking space. Anyway, all bases outside will stay protected from laws and lawfuls.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Arbs - 09-10-2016

Yep its about time for this thing to be changed. Personaly I'd be okay with option one, but option 2 doesnt sound bad either as it fairly regulates what house governments can contorl as well as what unlawfuls can do in that regard.

So either way, the current rule needs to be changed.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Stoner_Steve - 09-10-2016

I like option two, I don't want the Liberty Navy coming to PR again to shoot at the PoB's


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Wildkins - 09-10-2016

(09-10-2016, 11:13 PM)Captain_Nemo Wrote: I like option two, I don't want the Liberty Navy coming to PR again to shoot at the PoB's

yes because it was definitely our fault that after carefully negotiating a treaty to deal with the fact that a base two jumps from our capital was shooting at our ships and serving as a haven for criminals, the same people we negotiated with turned around and threw up the middle finger in response /s

I don't think option two is really feasible honestly and I know nobody is going to argue for option one that isn't a house lawful, so at the end of the day we're probably stuck with what we've got
it's not as bad of a system as I first thought it was and that's mainly because I don't really see an alternative working out


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Arbs - 09-10-2016

(09-10-2016, 11:22 PM)John Wildkins Wrote:
(09-10-2016, 11:13 PM)Captain_Nemo Wrote: I like option two, I don't want the Liberty Navy coming to PR again to shoot at the PoB's

yes because it was definitely our fault that after carefully negotiating a treaty to deal with the fact that a base two jumps from our capital was shooting at our ships and serving as a haven for criminals, the same people we negotiated with turned around and threw up the middle finger in response /s

I don't think option two is really feasible honestly and I know nobody is going to argue for option one that isn't a house lawful, so at the end of the day we're probably stuck with what we've got
it's not as bad of a system as I first thought it was and that's mainly because I don't really see an alternative working out

In fact this whole rule was created following what happened back then. But lets not derail the thread. And the current system needs to change as it doesnt really make much sense.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Demonic - 09-11-2016

To be honest it kinda baffles me how some unlawfuls are able to tax and destroy bases located in system directly next to House capital system. I mean... in reality, there should've been heavy oposition from house military. There wasn't, cause we are dependend on players.

I think unlawfuls should be limited in the same way lafwuls are. I mean... if Lawfuls are not allowed to take the fight to the Outer Regional Space, or to enforce their will there, why should unlawfulls, who in reality, should have way less resources on their hands, have the right to destroy PoBs in the core house systems (the blue ones on the list). And yes, there will probably be a lot of people, that will tell me I'm a carebear or how the curent slang for insulting admins is, but the reality of the server is the unlawful currently rule supreme, cause lawful faction players usually don't log too much, or they log on their unlawful chars.

If this wasn't the case and Lawfulls would fully capable of protecting their home systems from unlawfuls, then this wouldn't be necessary, but as it is of now, I think this rule is needed.


RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - MrCharles - 09-11-2016

This rule didn't stop the KNF and KNI destroying my POB. It wasn't hostile.