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+--- Thread: Jumphole Overhaul (/showthread.php?tid=157354)
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - SnakThree - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 02:01 PM)Karlotta Wrote: I'm also happy that you finally found it within your heart to say that you agree with me about the Ontario-Colorado link, SnakThree. Thank you
I was against that shortcut for years and was already talking with devs what can be done.
I am also against Kyushu-Tau23 shorcut for example.
I just don't see your overall proposal for major shifts as beneficial in the end, if we end up removing most of them to force people in interactions when they HAVE to fly dozen of minutes to get where they want just for a chance of meeting someone they didn't plan for as they have another goal in mind. Some people already expressed that flying so long just to get to where they want is one of the reasons Disco is repulsive.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 02:09 PM)SnakThree Wrote:(01-26-2018, 02:01 PM)Karlotta Wrote: I'm also happy that you finally found it within your heart to say that you agree with me about the Ontario-Colorado link, SnakThree. Thank you
I was against that shortcut for years and was already talking with devs what can be done.
I am also against Kyushu-Tau23 shorcut for example.
At the present state I'm also against the Kyushu-Tau 23 shortcut, possibly even the t29-t23 one, but left them in (for the moment) because:
1. I'm reluctant to remove vanilla JHs, because they're actually embedded deeper into lore than the others. (the JHs with nomads in alpha and gamma being better examples)
2. Cardamine smugglers (like traders and pirates) do need some alterative routes, or it would be possible to block them entirely by camping a single jumphole/gate. The alternative routes should still be close enough together that someone who tries to catch them can attempt to cover both routes without changing chars.
Quote:I just don't see your overall proposal for major shifts as beneficial in the end, if we end up removing most of them to force people in interactions when they HAVE to fly dozen of minutes to get where they want just for a chance of meeting someone they didn't plan for as they have another goal in mind. Some people already expressed that flying so long just to get to where they want is one of the reasons Disco is repulsive.
What you're possibly not realizing is that I'm not only taking connections away, I'm also adding some to make travel along the "highways" that have choke points faster. Like other people don't seem to realize that I'm not removing any systems or content.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Thyrzul - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 02:17 PM)Karlotta Wrote: What you're possibly not realizing is that I'm not only taking connections away, I'm also adding some to make travel along the "highways" that have choke points faster. Like other people don't seem to realize that I'm not removing any systems or content.
You are just taking them out of the loop, how's that any different from deletion in regards to traffic channeling? This entire proposal is to drive away people from them onto the "highways". The only difference I see is having unused content left behind.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 02:24 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:(01-26-2018, 02:17 PM)Karlotta Wrote: What you're possibly not realizing is that I'm not only taking connections away, I'm also adding some to make travel along the "highways" that have choke points faster. Like other people don't seem to realize that I'm not removing any systems or content.
You are just taking them out of the loop, how's that any different from deletion in regards to traffic channeling? This entire proposal is to drive away people from them onto the "highways". The only difference I see is having unused content left behind.
The difference is that they're still in the game to explore, still exist in lore, and still have all their assets like bases, commodities, and ship sell points.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Thyrzul - 01-26-2018
Wouldn't exploration draw people away from main traffic areas, activity nodes and choke points too much?
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 01-26-2018
It would draw them away a little (like the one time they explored it or bought a ship in it). But exploration, as well as the other things I mentioned have positive aspects too which must be weighed against it.
It also draws traffic away from the highways less if they're directly or closely attached to the highways, so people have to go along the highways to get there.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 01:37 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: One of the main issues with this proposal is that there are inherent flaws in the entrety of it. Intra-system distances are not addressed, there are no proposals for intra-system locations for the new jumpholes, no regard to what possible economy balance may be required not to screw up things even more, without these it's just - no offense - half-assed.
It's a work in progress, for which I asked for suggestions.
It's also designed to make as little work as possible for devs, so it can be done as soon as possible. Intra-system JH layout should logically follow the concepts of vanilla (not too close to bases, not too far apart or close together).
Economy concerns are valid, and have been partially taken into account by making smuggle routes like cardamine and artifacts shorter and/or focusing them through choke points. Everyone, including you, were invited to express any concern with JHs they had, regarding the economy or any other aspect.
With the current player count however, I think it's perfectly controllable to do the JH overhaul first and, do the economy adjustments later in another update. Especially since the impacts of the overwhelming majority of theoretically necessary economy adjustments will remain purely theoretical in a nearly empty sector/server.
(01-26-2018, 01:37 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: On the other hand, as I said before, the general concept of mainstreaming traffic into tighter areas and through bottlenecks already exists. There are single most efficient trade routes between the houses including, but not limited to:
● Omega-3 and Omega-7,
● Sigma-13,
● Tau-29 and Tau-31,
● Tau-23 and Tau-31,
● Rishiri,
there are also prioritised pathways between Liberty and the other three Sirian houses for various reasons, namely:
● Cortez over Magellan because of the GRN's advance and one less lane in Manchester,
● Hudson over Bering because of the destroyed Hamburg gate and the takeover of the freeport,
● Kepler over Galileo because of one less lane and Ames, (though I wouldn't mind something interesting in Galileo)
and then there are the bottlenecks including, but not limited to:
● California, Colorado, Texas,
● Manchester, Cambridge, Leeds, (though the latter is a bit of a special case)
● Kyushu, Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku,
● Hamburg, Frankfurt, Stuttgart,
● Languedoc, Dauphine, Lyonnais, Lorraine,
and by extension, the capital systems the above are connected to, in case they are and there are no viable shortcuts around them:
● New London,
● New Tokyo,
● New Berlin.
This long part seems to serve no other purpose than to explain things that I, like most people who look at the map, already know, with the intention of making me look like I didnt know it. I think the word for that is "mansplaining". Tbh most of your post seems motivated by bitterness over me not supporting making Sirius a sphere rather than "flat" so you can attach Gallia to everything in the hope of making Gallia and your faction more important and populated. I hope you can stop taking that so personal and stop making it a "my proposal vs your proposal" thing. Even if you've successfully sunk "my proposal" as you'RE obviously trying to do (which isnt "mine" but my attempt at a practical implementation of something that many people have asked for while asking others to please contribute), "your proposal" still has the problem that it requires MASSIVE amounts of work, and MASSIVE undoing of old lore, plus is takes the story into a direction that the devs obviously dont want.
Quote:What I agree about is that Gallia needs a bit of a restructuring to resemble the other houses in regards to both intra-house and inter-house connections, which is the core of my ancient proposal.
But in order to remain constructive, possibly with a proposal unrelated to Gallia and matching the OP's proposal in quality and detail:
Redo the Ontario-Colorado jumphole connection so New York can join the rest in the above list. How it's done, complete removal, distance increase, restriction to snubs only, I don't care, and given the depth of your proposal, you don't seem to care either.
Thank you for making a concrete suggestion. However at this point I find the justification "so it can join the above list" is outweighed by the negative impact of people using it to avoid interaction. If you have better justifications I'm glad to read them and hope you can voice them in a less emotionally driven way.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Thyrzul - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 03:28 PM)Karlotta Wrote: This long part seems to serve no other purpose than to explain things that I, like most people who look at the map, already know, with the intention of making me look like I didnt know it. I think the word for that is "mansplaining". Tbh most of your post seems motivated by bitterness over me not supporting making Sirius a sphere rather than "flat" so you can attach Gallia to everything in the hope of making Gallia and your faction more important and populated. I hope you can stop taking that so personal and stop making it a "my proposal vs your proposal" thing. Even if you've successfully sunk "my proposal" as you'RE obviously trying to do (which isnt "mine" but my attempt at a practical implementation of something that many people have asked for while asking others to please contribute), "your proposal" still has the problem that it requires MASSIVE amounts of work, and MASSIVE undoing of old lore, plus is takes the story into a direction that the devs obviously dont want.
Sure previous posts of mine were motivated by trying to bring my own ideas forward as well, that's why I tried making a change and reducing my Gallia-related agenda to a mere two-line mention. [sarcasm]Thanks for noticing that.[/sarcasm]
Making you look like you didn't know what I explained also wasn't my intention, you've done that yourself, that's why I felt the need to explain how exactly what you are requesting basically exists already, in other words how you are beating a more or less dead horse (also explained in the very first paragraph you quoted). [sarcasm]Thanks again for understanding the point of my post.[/sarcasm]
Making you look like you didn't know what I explained also wasn't my intention, you've done that yourself, that's why I felt the need to explain how exactly what you are requesting basically exists already, in other words how you are beating a more or less dead horse (also explained in the very first paragraph you quoted). [sarcasm]Thanks again for understanding the point of my post.[/sarcasm]
(01-26-2018, 03:28 PM)Karlotta Wrote: Thank you for making a concrete suggestion. However at this point I find the justification "so it can join the above list" is outweighed by the negative impact of people using it to avoid interaction. If you have better justifications I'm glad to read them and hope you can voice them in a less emotionally driven way.
I'm a bit confused at this one. I pretty much suggested the same thing SnakThree did after my post, and you two agreed as well that the Ontario-Colorado gateway is indeed a detrimental shortcut going around New York. I don't get how that's suddenly a good thing now or why New York becoming another bottleneck for several routes like the other capital planets is a bad thing when your thread is all about bottlenecks and highways.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 01-26-2018
Look at the map I proposed before you asked to "redo" the ontario-colorado when you're calm enough to not be so sarcastic.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Thyrzul - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 05:19 PM)Karlotta Wrote: Look at the map I proposed before you asked to "redo" the ontario-colorado when you're calm enough to not be so sarcastic.
I've looked at it since my post in question and found out what I suggested wasn't a new thing, thank you for the advice. Don't worry, though, I'm calm enough, after all I'm not the one trying to make this personal this time, or overall being condescending. One condescending person is way more than enough for this thread.