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+--- Thread: Jumphole Overhaul (/showthread.php?tid=157354)
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Antonio - 07-10-2018
Economy rework and jumphole overhaul go hand in hand with each other. Only doing the economy will leave you with a couple of good straightforward routes where almost all relevant commodities go, unified mining spots and better price rebalancing. But without the jumphole overhaul, traffic won't be condensed into 1 way/spot throughout the whole route or at least a portion of it. If there isn't a good choke point, there isn't a good place to pirate. As long as a trader has a dozen ways of choosing how to get from point A to point B efficiently, and have multiple alternate routes at his disposal if he sees something's happening in front of him, piracy will not be worth it.
Reduced travel time is just a consequence (and a good one) of the jumphole overhaul. The main reason is to create choke points, not just for pirate-trader interaction, but the whole circle of trader-pirate-lawful and general ease of meeting someone that wants to be met (a raid). With the dwindling player count, there's no reason not to do it, but the solution is to do the jumphole overhaul first while keeping in mind how to organize routes and mining fields, and then rebalance and recalculate economy (prices, routes, etc.) based on new distances.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - SCEC - 07-10-2018
(07-10-2018, 07:39 AM)Karlotta Wrote:(07-10-2018, 04:48 AM)Gardarik Wrote:(07-10-2018, 04:27 AM)Karlotta Wrote:(07-10-2018, 02:26 AM)Batavia Wrote: It's not about realism. It's about maths. Yours being way off, as explained in the other thread.
No actually, you didnt explain anything you claimed, so please do it here.
Actually, he did with a bit of economics. As a third party to that dispute, I bet on economics explanation because it works and you can read real scientific papers on this "bottleneck" effect. Between some post on the Internet and economics theory proven by decades I would choose the latter.
He put up claims of conclusions from "math" and put up numbers without explaining how he arrived at the conclusions and numbers. You can read real scientific papers about microbiology too but that doesn't mean every unsubstantiated claim I make about this subject linking it to microbiology is automatically true, unless I can explain why it's true. So...
(07-10-2018, 02:59 AM)Karlotta Wrote:(07-10-2018, 02:10 AM)Batavia Wrote:(07-09-2018, 11:49 PM)Karlotta Wrote: My proposal doesn't cut any content , just a few jump hole connections while rerouting others. "In return" for the removed connection, a connection that allows for farther (and thereby faster) travel across Sirius along "highways" is given, while making two systems that are intended to be emptied for the benefit of the "highway" systems and connections.
You've not demonstrated that at all. If you'd actually do the math, you'd fine that the increased chance of encountering another player along these highways is a negligible percentage increase because all haulers are randomly distributed along all equally profitable paths. Chance increases in the 10's percentage range, not the multiple 100's of percentage increase that you need to notice any effect. You're dramatically overestimating the efficacy of cutting paths.
So show me how you did the math, and how you arrived at "chance of encountering another player along these highways is a negligible percentage increase because all haulers are randomly distributed along all equally profitable paths. Chance increases in the 10's percentage range, not the multiple 100's of percentage increase that you need to notice any effect."
Neither do you provide a math. Whether your method works or not is a mere speculation until tried or simulated. As giving it a try would require to revamp the server, this solution is not efficient. Therefore, you are left with simulation, that would better be provided for the proposal to be convincing.
Otherwise, it is just a qualitative "method" of speculating whether it will bring upon the desired effect. There were cases when the devs added some developments to the story/game mechanics that did not pay off at all. This solution is not safe from the same fate. The argument is better be more convincing.
P.S. articles exist to verify the claims of random people online. If you, say, make a claim about microbiological explanation of the harmful effect of vaccines, there weill be plenty of articles to refute it as nonsense.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Karlotta - 07-10-2018
(07-10-2018, 08:56 AM)Antonio Wrote: Economy rework and jumphole overhaul go hand in hand with each other. Only doing the economy will leave you with a couple of good straightforward routes where almost all relevant commodities go, unified mining spots and better price rebalancing. But without the jumphole overhaul, traffic won't be condensed into 1 way/spot throughout the whole route or at least a portion of it. If there isn't a good choke point, there isn't a good place to pirate. As long as a trader has a dozen ways of choosing how to get from point A to point B efficiently, and have multiple alternate routes at his disposal if he sees something's happening in front of him, piracy will not be worth it.
Reduced travel time is just a consequence (and a good one) of the jumphole overhaul. The main reason is to create choke points, not just for pirate-trader interaction, but the whole circle of trader-pirate-lawful and general ease of meeting someone that wants to be met (a raid). With the dwindling player count, there's no reason not to do it, but the solution is to do the jumphole overhaul first while keeping in mind how to organize routes and mining fields, and then rebalance and recalculate economy (prices, routes, etc.) based on new distances.
Exactly. In addition to that, the jumphole overhaul is much, much easier to do than a complete economy overhaul (I dare say there's no one here who has the time and energy to do that). The jumphole overhaul itself will already deregulate the existing almost-equal-profit-everywhere routes, make some worse and some better, thereby already creating better routes. If those routes turn out to be un-immersive and in undesired locations, they can always be changed individually afterwards instead of going through the trouble of thinking about ever single route before making any change.
(07-10-2018, 09:04 AM)Gardarik Wrote: Neither do you provide a math. Whether your method works or not is a mere speculation until tried or simulated. As giving it a try would require to revamp the server, this solution is not efficient. Therefore, you are left with simulation, that would better be provided for the proposal to be convincing.
Otherwise, it is just a qualitative "method" of speculating whether it will bring upon the desired effect. There were cases when the devs added some developments to the story/game mechanics that did not pay off at all. This solution is not safe from the same fate. The argument is better be more convincing.
P.S. articles exist to verify the claims of random people online. If you, say, make a claim about microbiological explanation of the harmful effect of vaccines, there weill be plenty of articles to refute it as nonsense.
Unlike him I never claimed to have done any math on this. I'm arguing clear cut cause and effect. If the same number of people have to go through one system instead of having the choice of three they could pass through, more people will encounter in the one system than will encounter in the three combined. It ain't rocket science. Discovery isn't a real economy and players don' t behave like network data packets nor real traders. Throwing around jargon, a picture that has nothing to do with how discovery really works, claims of numbers without showing where they come from, and calling people ignorant doesn't change that.
p.s: the point is that there aren't any papers that refute claims that microbiology is applicable to travel in discovery freelancer. If I were to claim that some principle of microbiology that was published in some paper was applicable to discovery, I'd have to show why its applicable enough to make extrapolate estimates from scientific papers, without making loads of false assumptions.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Batavia - 07-10-2018
(07-10-2018, 10:13 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Unlike him I never claimed to have done any math on this.
Yeah, that's pretty evident.
You're proposing to modify what looks like a small-world network into a scale-free network while it's actually an Erdős–Rényi random network (by design). Your proposed changes are merely cosmetic and don't address the topology of the network. The weight of individual vertices remain the same and the statistical likelihood of a player being in any given location at any given time remains roughly the same, barring small local shifts that represent only a tiny fraction of all possible states. This remains the case, ceteris paribus, regardless of the amount of edges you add and remove as long as vertex weight remains homogeneous. To create a scale-free network, you actually have to increase vertex weight heterogeneity. In order to create distinct, balanced clusters of vertices, graph modularity has to be increased as well to approach a hierarchical network.
(07-10-2018, 10:13 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I'm arguing clear cut cause and effect. If the same number of people have to go through one system instead of having the choice of three they could pass through, more people will encounter in the one system than will encounter in the three combined. It ain't rocket science.
If three routes individually facilitate 1% of traffic, cutting two of them still makes the third one have only 3% of traffic, which is a negligible increase. Players would not notice the difference. Your error lies in comparing only the three routes to each other, rather than comparing them globally to all routes. In reality, you wouldn't even get triple the traffic because previous destinations are no longer valid. That's what's meant by "cutting content".
(07-10-2018, 10:13 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Discovery isn't a real economy
It is. The Discovery economy being virtual doesn't mean that it doesn't obey economic principles. There isn't a separate set of rules that sets virtual economies apart from physical ones. Why? Because players are real people, with real motivations, using the same kind of cost analysis.
(07-10-2018, 10:13 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Throwing around jargon, a picture that has nothing to do with how discovery really works, claims of numbers without showing where they come from, and calling people ignorant doesn't change that.
p.s: the point is that there aren't any papers that refute claims that microbiology is applicable to travel in discovery freelancer. If I were to claim that some principle of microbiology that was published in some paper was applicable to discovery, I'd have to show why its applicable enough to make extrapolate estimates from scientific papers, without making loads of false assumptions.
Now if you could kindly stop whining about technical terms being used .. it'd be appreciated.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Manu - 07-11-2018
So what would you propose to solve the lack of interactivity between players as product of the decrease in server numbers Batavia? Like for example I'm in NY and I notice there's an ongoing activity in New London. How do you propose I get there on time and enjoy the RP and be part of the interaction before its over? What would be your solution to this problem?
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Thyrzul - 07-11-2018
You either take the 10 minutes of flight from NY to NL, or if you are concerned you might not arrive in time (which is unlikely due to the usual duration of more significant events), you can change to an other character you've earlier set up and docked closer to NL.
They were discussing the necessity of economic changes alongside system connection changes in order to increase the frequency of events, how you get to the site in time once an event has already started doesn't seem to be too relevant to that. Besides as I've noticed the proposal in the OP doesn't seem to address the NY-NL pathway either.
They were discussing the necessity of economic changes alongside system connection changes in order to increase the frequency of events, how you get to the site in time once an event has already started doesn't seem to be too relevant to that. Besides as I've noticed the proposal in the OP doesn't seem to address the NY-NL pathway either.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - SCEC - 07-11-2018
(07-11-2018, 03:22 AM)Manu Wrote: So what would you propose to solve the lack of interactivity between players as product of the decrease in server numbers Batavia? Like for example I'm in NY and I notice there's an ongoing activity in New London. How do you propose I get there on time and enjoy the RP and be part of the interaction before its over? What would be your solution to this problem?
The discussion was regarding how economic routes generate activity. If so, the RP going on in NL while you are in NY is most probably irrelevant to you unless you are an independent pirate.
If you are a player like me who does not trade at all and does not engage in piracy, you will find the whole discussion being irrelevant to you.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Batavia - 07-11-2018
(07-11-2018, 08:27 AM)Gardarik Wrote:(07-11-2018, 03:22 AM)Manu Wrote: So what would you propose to solve the lack of interactivity between players as product of the decrease in server numbers Batavia? Like for example I'm in NY and I notice there's an ongoing activity in New London. How do you propose I get there on time and enjoy the RP and be part of the interaction before its over? What would be your solution to this problem?
The discussion was regarding how economic routes generate activity. If so, the RP going on in NL while you are in NY is most probably irrelevant to you unless you are an independent pirate.
If you are a player like me who does not trade at all and does not engage in piracy, you will find the whole discussion being irrelevant to you.
Where do you get credits? Missions?
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - Manu - 07-11-2018
I think there's a bit of confusion here. You guys are thinking game play wise and its functions, like economy. Karlotta is talking about reinvigorating RP in the game considering the decrease in server population. She basically states this in the first sentence and reiterates this in several posts. Jump holes are basically the medium of transportation for Pirates and Smugglers, not made for Transports, Freighters or General Public. Yeah it might have an impact in economy but this directly affects the mayor pillars of the game RP and Server numbers. So several sacrifices may have to happen sooner or later unless there's another work around this issue.
RE: Jumphole Overhaul - SCEC - 07-11-2018
(07-11-2018, 08:30 AM)Batavia Wrote:(07-11-2018, 08:27 AM)Gardarik Wrote:(07-11-2018, 03:22 AM)Manu Wrote: So what would you propose to solve the lack of interactivity between players as product of the decrease in server numbers Batavia? Like for example I'm in NY and I notice there's an ongoing activity in New London. How do you propose I get there on time and enjoy the RP and be part of the interaction before its over? What would be your solution to this problem?
The discussion was regarding how economic routes generate activity. If so, the RP going on in NL while you are in NY is most probably irrelevant to you unless you are an independent pirate.
If you are a player like me who does not trade at all and does not engage in piracy, you will find the whole discussion being irrelevant to you.
Where do you get credits? Missions?
Nowadays, mostly missions. Sometimes, mining. I am deadly sick of trading and am not going back. Besides, I have a few ships and have no need for more.
(07-11-2018, 04:01 PM)Manu Wrote: I think there's a bit of confusion here. You guys are thinking game play wise and its functions, like economy. Karlotta is talking about reinvigorating RP in the game considering the decrease in server population. She basically states this in the first sentence and reiterates this in several posts. Jump holes are basically the medium of transportation for Pirates and Smugglers, not made for Transports, Freighters or General Public. Yeah it might have an impact in economy but this directly affects the mayor pillars of the game RP and Server numbers. So several sacrifices may have to happen sooner or later unless there's another work around this issue.
The RP for many factions is limited to their ZOI so there isn't much troubles about traversing far as they have nothing to do that far. Even despite I play as Coalition with unlimited ZOI, there are almost no incentives that would make me go to Liberty however long/short the route is. Ease of access will not change much if there is no goal of going somewhere. What's the point of a convenient mug if there is nothing to drink? Batavia indicated correctly regarding trading, but that solution pertains to trading only by creating trading nodes where all traders would fancy going because of lucrative deals and pirates would follow their prey. It is a good solution because gives incentives for traders to go to a specific point rather than forcing them to take certain routes. If you look at real-life marine trading, you will see that due to revenue being concentrated in a few spots, ships choose the same most optimal in terms of time/benefit routes despite almost endless number of alternative routes.