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+--- Thread: Finished Ingame Help System (/showthread.php?tid=157918)
RE: Help System - Karlotta - 02-23-2018
(02-20-2018, 08:13 AM)sindroms Wrote: Just a reminder, players do not like reading paragraphs of text. That much you should know from the amount that actually read the rules.
If they have a choice between figuring things out on their own, they will do so. Especially ones who view tutorials as a crutch for people who aren't resourceful enough to wing it.
I honestly believe the concept itself is flawed. Take your time to look up and view the overall amount of text you are using to achieve this. A lot of this is because of the game mechanics themselves, such as the mining system which should work simply by having a mining capable ID and ship, instead of requiring other items. The system worked fine in pre-85 and nobody complained and it was way more straightforward than this.
A lot of the other mechanics you are trying to sell a new player will not become relevant until they get way later into the game. Information overload is still a thing and they must be fed the information gradually as they progress through the game itself.
I think the first and biggest change you can do already without any new assets is the swap of the Beginner.fl and newcharactermp.fl files. If we advetise players using a restart straight from the beginning, we might as well start them off with the beginner restart map an ship. Then rename the default mapless restart as ''Hardcore'' or something.
This simple change should already aid new players a lot.
In the end, new players learn the most information from other players. We saw this with groups such as IMG and Junkers Congress, who actively scouted for new players to involve into disco and nothing builds game attention than finding players to play with on a regular basis.
While this sounds unrealistic, we need to provide factions some sort of safeguard where they are excempt from harsh roleplay consequences if they start accepting new players that might screw up somehow. I've talked about this before, but we are in a situation where factions are waiting for someone to screw up in order to use the excuse to start oorp or irp drama. This makes factions actively avoid picking up completely new players.
In short, the integration of new players is not made complicated only because of the lack of a tutorial system. It is a slew of issues that each need addressing. And not just by the tutorial orientated side of the community.
Dear sindroms,
It looks like there are a number of things that you didn’t understand, so I took some time to explain things in more depth. Although I must admit it’s somewhat tiresome for me to have to do it.
1. It’s not a one-time tutorial that must be read before playing, it’s a help system that can be read while playing, and that can be referred to while playing. There’s therefore no danger of “information overload”, because unlike the buoys that someone put in front of planet Erie, people can read this “flawed concept”, as you call it, at any time, anywhere, on any character, even while doing something like trading at the same time. It’s also split into easily oversee-able topics. There’s a video in the OP to make this especially easy to understand.
2. Overload comes from lengthy and useless phrases like “We would also like to you remind you, that you should…” or repetitions of useless self-evident feel-good phrases like “Fair play, a level head, and consideration of others are paramount” and “The intent behind these rules are for everyone to be excellent to one another, and to use common sense.”, which players are currently forced to read when looking for the real information instead of phrases. Another mistake made in currently existing rules texts is to not order things from most relevant to least relevant for the people who are looking for information. For example starting the post by telling rules for admins instead of rules for players (plus two paragraphs about how people should be super fair and if they’re looking for loopholes good luck). Another thing is that something relevant only for shared ships of permabanned members was put (by someone, for some reason) into a post that people who aren’t concerned by it at all must read so they can play. All these things may appear petty and unimportant to people who have no motivation to put themselves into the shoes of someone who hasn’t played this mod for years already. But these things make this place look like it’s run by amateurs and therefore unattractive to play in by someone who wants more than to just shoot space ships. If you don’t take the mentioned things into account, readers will unavoidably think: “Why am I wasting my time reading all this useless and badly organized stuff?” While some people are happy to blame players who don’t read, they should also be blaming themselves for making things inconvenient for players who do try to read, and for making things more difficult for people who try to help (for example factions recruiting noobs) by not providing the tools that would make helping easier (or by suppressing those tools out of petty personal motives, to which I would say “get over yourself already”).
3. I’m not the one “trying to sell” complicated game mechanics. Those complicated game mechanics were already sold by digital anvil and discovery developers and admins. I’m the one who took the time to summarize the things players now need to know because of things I can't change. And I took great care to do it in as few words, as simple words, and in an as easily accessible ways as possible. Without much help from anyone else, I might add, even after giving others many chances to contribute, for months.
4. After writing or re-writing almost every word myself, editing the rest, and re-reading everything multiple times… yeah, I do know exactly how long the whole thing is: It’s as short as possible with the rules and game mechanics we were given. In fact, I’ve made the lengthy (and often useless) existing paragraphs that admins forced people to read considerably shorter and better organized. I use the minimum number of words, without useless information or phrases, and I really wish those who were in a much better position than me and who now claim to be concerned with “information overload” had done so too. If you think you can contribute any concrete, constructive, and positive things to this, please do so. But tbh I think someone attempting to contribute in order to take credit for something that they could have done for months (or years) will only delay things at this stage.
5. When cleaning up the mess that is discovery, the need to clean up in one corner isn’t a reason to not clean up another messed-up corner. Yet somehow you choose to make it sound as if the other improvements you now claim to want are mutually exclusive to this Help System. They’re not. In fact, I’ve brought up those same things multiple times in the past, and tbh I never noticed you supporting any of them, before you tried to turn them into arguments to not implement or delay a help system that is already finished to the point that it takes 15 to 30 minutes to add to the mod.
I would also be nice if the devs finally broke their silence about this, and the admins about this.
What about my question regarding the numbering of infocards? Better to use existing empty ones or create new ones?
Do you see any need for changes?
Do you have suggestions for more topics?
RE: Help System - Xalrok - 03-03-2018
I like this, but I'd like to see it proof-read first by others for any wrong or outdated information before we add anything. If Laz's FLHook version is completed in time we could always merge stuff from here if we need to.
RE: Help System - Karlotta - 03-03-2018
(03-03-2018, 01:44 PM)Xalrok Wrote: I like this, but I'd like to see it proof-read first by others for any wrong or outdated information before we add anything. If Laz's FLHook version is completed in time we could always merge stuff from here if we need to.
As I said, proof reading by as many people as possible here would be greatly appreciated. I proof-read everything multiple times, and it's best to put a time limit until when people should proof read it, like 3 days or a week. I think it's been good enough to go into the mod for a long time now, even if not 100% perfect.
About the FLHook thing... at this point it's better to use the nav map instead of FLHook for several reasons:
-There are a lot of topics, and the system map provides a better overview of them than a list of commands. The number of required FLHook commands would also be very high now.
-The text will be stored client-side, so it wont have to be "downloaded" from the server every time it's read. That should ease the server load when using it.
-It's easier to correct things by just correcting an infocard, instead of having to recompile FLHook by someone who knows how to do it. There also seem to be bugs with FLHook for long texts.
-It's already finished.
About Laz's work, no offense but he had loads of time to do it, and he chose not to finish it until after I finished the whole thing on my own. Now the bug allegedly gets fixed shortly I finished it. He can continue doing what ever he wants to do with house laws, but I'm really tired of having this delayed, especially now that there's no real need for him to do anything anymore, other than maybe taking credit for work which he could have finished before I did everything.
About the rules in the "rules presentation" thread, people should proof read those too. Even if admins choose not to replace the rules as written on the forum (for some strange reason, since they're still talking about guard systems and are really a mess in the way they're uselessly cluttered), the shorter and more up to date version I made in that thread could be put into the mod. After all there's already a shorter but incomplete version of the rules in the buoy/cargo item.
RE: Help System - Laz - 03-03-2018
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: About Laz's work, no offense but he had loads of time to do it, and he chose not to finish it until after I finished the whole thing on my own. Now the bug allegedly gets fixed shortly I finished it. He can continue doing what ever he wants to do with house laws, but I'm really tired of having this delayed, especially now that there's no real need for him to do anything anymore, other than maybe taking credit for work which he could have finished before I did everything.
I am not normally one to bitch on the forums or anything, but I am just going to address this little point here, and try to be as clear and concise as possible.
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: About Laz's work, no offense but he had loads of time to do itFor the most part - not true. As many people know, my time is scarce and most of my free time within this community is spent helping people or creating material to do the same thing.
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: he chose not to finish it until after I finished the whole thing on my own. Now the bug allegedly gets fixed shortly I finished it.This has nothing to do with you in any shape or form, and the bug was not fixed. I simply found a way around it by dumbing down the entire plugin. That is why my "laws" plugin simply became a little bit about what stuff is illegal, rather than the fully fledged thing I designed.
On top of that, as many could tell you, I didn't "choose not to finish it". I was working rather consistently to try and fix it and bothered @Alex. continuously with ideas and updates trying to work out how to fix it. In the end, I decided to get a version of it working. Since I've done my best to not hardcode things, we can just update things, once we have a solution, without too much fuss.
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: but I'm really tired of having this delayed, especially now that there's no real need for him to do anything anymore, other than maybe taking credit for work which he could have finished before I did everything.In regards to that last bit, read above. I did things as fast as I can, and got no where; so I settled. I am still working, but I have everything finished and am simply waiting on my code to be reviewed, and the configs to be finalised (or rather, wait for new information to be created and formatted).
Now. With all that said, my thoughts on your reasoning for why the Nav-map way is better:
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: -There are a lot of topics, and the system map provides a better overview of them than a list of commands. The number of required FLHook commands would also be very high now.Incorrect. I've programmed it in a way that would allow one command to control all menus.
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: -The text will be stored client-side, so it wont have to be "downloaded" from the server every time it's read. That should ease the server load when using it.The difference is so fractional, that you'd not even notice anything.
(03-03-2018, 02:11 PM)Karlotta Wrote: -It's easier to correct things by just correcting an infocard, instead of having to recompile FLHook by someone who knows how to do it. There also seem to be bugs with FLHook for long texts.This is something that you've not really noticed with the dev things. Because of the way the dev team functions, patches are released in segments, rather than individual files here and there. As the infocards are controlled by a single file, these could only be edited "client side" once every patch.
FLHook, however, can be changed every single server restart (or even while people are still on the server with the .rehash command). I've also added bits inside my code to make sure there are no duplicate entries created from the .rehash command.
Lastly, I have one more point about this thread, your others, and well - everything. I will admit this is more a personal point than anything, but I feel it must be said.
While I appreciate the fact are willing to try and help out and get things changed to increase the longevity of this age old game, I do think your approach needs a lot of work. You are being far too hostile and defensive to those trying to aid you in your goals and it's reflecting rather negatively on your proposals.
To name a couple of examples, both @Dino & I, have messaged you, over Skype, about either using your content or working with you to produce more tutorial content. I can not go over how disgusted I am and was at your reaction to this. You were incredibly hostile against us and going to the extent of going full "Capslock Keyboard Warrior" with your responses; that, among the insults, is why we decided we'd just rewrite your content ourselves.
Do not see this as me having "a go" at you or anything, but rather see this as feedback. People know I try to avoid making big long posts or sniping at others on the forums; I did enough of that idiocy before I got banned.To reiterate my starting point, I appropriate the fact you're willing to spend your own time to produce content that is aimed to help people. I am just suggesting that you tone down your response's hostility, and try and be more cooperative with people.
Yet, at the end of the day, these are all just my opinions. You are, of course, free to do as you choose.
(sorry for everyone that reads this wall of text)
RE: Help System - Karlotta - 03-03-2018
Well thanks for wasting even more time by making me have to respond to misrepresentations, accusations, and the announcement that you now plan to rewrite everything just so you can take credit for something you didn't (yet) do.
And you do that even though there's no need or benefit in doing it, only additional delay, work, and a change in "authorship" for something I already finished a long time ago, and which I would have finished an even longer time ago if people had been honest from the start.
I've lost count of the number of times it went back and forth between "the bug is fixed" and "the bug isn't fixed", but every time it switched it resulted in this: you say you'll do it but end up not doing it before something else that "has" to be done first but doesn't work yet, even though the help system already works.
All the reasons you gave for using FLHook instead of the system map would make it nearly as good, but not better, even if they were true.
-Since the day the Help System was 100% finished and I posted this thread, there have been one large patch plus (if I remember correctly) one or two small ones. There are patches every few weeks/days, and the game mechanics described in the help system haven't changed for years, if they've ever changed at all. There are still rules on the forum about guard systems for crying out loud, and those would take a minute to remove.
-Downloading the text via FLHook every time it's read may take only a fraction more time for a single person who has a good connection reading it. But the load is felt by the entire server every time someone opens the text and not only the one person reading it, because the server has to send to text too.
-It's good if you somehow managed to give an overview of all commands on one page, but it doesn't change the fact that it will only become nearly or equally as good as having it all clickable on the system map.
Just like everything before, these are merely excuses and will accomplish nothing but delay it so you get a chance to flash your angel wings.
If you call what you and Dino did "reaching out" and "offering help" then you have a strange idea of both. It was more like you were trying to get me to do extra work for you, which would have achieved nothing but delay what I already finished and make yourselves look like you contributed to it. And at the same time you refused to contribute for real, by not releasing an already working system before, and refusing to do something really constructive like proof read or supporting the rules reform publicly on the forum.
You're also quite deliberately, and with obvious intent, exaggerating my use of caps in some words as "full caps keyboard warrior" and me calling certain approaches counterproductive and stupid as me being "insulting". I'm also disgusted by a few things here, especially by the way people block progress out of a petty need to make themselves look important. This is the very thing that has been blocking any positive development in multiple aspects of the mod and community all these years. So it would be nice if people could get over themselves. The fact that something like this wasnt done 9 years ago is beyond ridiculous. As is the fact that we have to talk about these shenanigans right now, when its been ALREADY FINISHED FOR WEEKS.
RE: Help System - Karlotta - 03-03-2018
I edited the OP to get people to proof read and point out any errors (bump).
RE: Need Proof-Readers for Help System - Karlotta - 03-05-2018
I edited the thread title to get more proof readers (bump)
RE: Help System - Antonio - 03-05-2018
Proof read and sent corrections to Karlotta.
RE: Need Proof-Readers for Help System - Ash - 03-05-2018
After a little carousing I spotted a few things:
TRADING - (Typo) "...transfer to from other ships (not ship)..."
TRADING - (Sarcasm) You mention how logging when being held up by pirates "angers the gods", this phrase sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise informative guide. I'd just say it as it is.
MINING - (Extras) I strongly suggest signposting to the disco mining guide. It's got all the comprehensive information and something you didn't mention: mining zones.
CASH - (Digression) The first few sentences don't really add anything you haven't already said in other sections. In fact it misleads a little and starts out like a 'how to make money' section. This section is about moving money, and should be named so. Cut out the first bit, the rest is spot on.
COMBAT - (Importance) I'd suggest moving your mentioning of conn from the survival subsection to the main article summary. It's the bread and butter of training in all aspects so i'd put it up front and center.
As for the timeline I can only confidently contribute what I am overly familiar with which is Planetform:
Bretonia
400 - Harris terraforming commences
752 - Ayr terraforming commences
Liberty
741 - California Minor terraforming commences
400 - Harris terraforming commences
752 - Ayr terraforming commences
Liberty
741 - California Minor terraforming commences
RE: Need Proof-Readers for Help System - Karlotta - 03-06-2018
Thank you Vendetta, Antonio, and Ash for reading everything. I incorporated your suggestions one way or another.