+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Role-Playing (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Forum: Unofficial Factions and Groups (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=67)
+--- Thread: Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House (/showthread.php?tid=15817)
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Gemini893 - 01-27-2009
I'm going to repeat myself from another thread because I feel this warrants a full discussion. I don't know who came up with this idea but I seriously don't see how it could have been thought out thoroughly.
Quote:I still don't like the sticky situation created by the Harvester / Zoner war.
1. Zoners have always been neutral. Creating an enemy for them just for the sake of giving them an enemy could, at least, be done more carefully.
2. Corsairs are allied with The Order who is allied with Zoners. Corsairs and Zoners work together closely for mutual survival even though there is no official alliance. This is learned through talking with NPCs in any Zoner bar. For Corsairs to openly ally with the enemy of a friend would effectively kick all Corsairs off Zoner bases and put them, at the very least, in the unfriendly side of neutral.
3. Anyone who argues "Corsairs are more powerful and can do what they want" does not fully consider the dynamics of diplomacy.
The U.S. is more powerful than just about any other country in the world, does that give it the right to, for example, attack French ships on a whim? No. While the French deserve a slap in the face for their haughty and idiotic attitude toward US citizens, it would cause a diplomatic nightmare with the rest of the planet.
Let's not forget that Zoners also have 2 classes of battleship, a destroyer, and now a gunboat. Zoners are quite a powerful military faction in their own right, if they choose to be. You're pulling them out of their neutrality and setting a precedent for Zoners becoming a House. Because you give Zoners an enemy, you give Zoners reason to come together for a common defense. This will result in a Zoner Navy, Zoner Police, and possibly even a Zoner Intelligence Agency to defend Zoner interests. That's what having enemies does. You can't expect Zoners to remain a loosely affiliated bunch when they have a common enemy. That would neither be role play nor realistic.
And what happens when Zoners cross Corsair space to engage Harvesters? Corsairs are friendly with Zoners and allied with Harvesters. Are they forced to choose sides? If they choose Harvesters then they're kicked out of Zoner bases. If they choose Zoners then they must break ties with Harvesters, and that puts Harvesters in a difficult place of finding equipment, etc.
This whole Harvester vs. Zoner thing needs to be thought out better, or eliminated.
That part about a common enemy pulling Zoners together into an organized house is not OORP, it's realistically what would happen in realistic circumstances. Look at Iraq and Iran. They fight each other, but sometimes combine forces to battle Allied troops. Also consider the US doesn't really like either nation and yet we used to give Saddam Hussein money to combat Iran because the US government thought even worse of Iran at the time. Common enemies make strange bedfellows and the Zoners WOULD, very realistically, pull together and form a House, Navy, Police, and Intelligence agency.
Rolls and vessels of each Zoner Military faction:
Zoner Police: Patrol Zoner space around and near to Zoner bases and Freeports. Enforce the 5k no-fire zone.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Bombers, Freighters, Prison Liner, Transports (no more than 1000 cargo space)
Allowed Guard ships: Fighters, Bombers, Gunboats
Zoner Intelligence Agency: Locate and keep track of Harvester threats and movements when said threats are outside of Zoner systems and to evaluate the threat level at any given time. Can also (upon request, not upon a whim) assist Police to enforce base security and the Navy to secure systems from invasion.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Bombers, Prison Liner, Freighters, Gunboats
Allowed Guard ships: Fighters, Bombers, Gunboats, Cruisers
Zoner Navy: Defend Zoner systems from Harvester invasion and, occasionally, venture out to hunt Harvesters.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Bombers, Freighters, Prison Liner, Gunboats
Allowed Guard ships: Fighters, Bombers, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
I was kinda lazy here, I copied allowed ships to be the same as their Liberty counterparts. This might or might not be the best way to go, but I figure generic Zoner and generic Zoner Guard can handle the Transport ships. I also did not cover the can and can not parts, just the role play of the factions.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Ash - 01-27-2009
Firstly, Corsairs are more likely to choose harvesters over Zoners being that they aren't exactly how you say "Neutral" with them these days. All sorts of things have brought the Zoners down to unfriendly terms with some corsair factions. I also believe (correct me if i'm wrong) that it may have been some time before or recently a corsair faction was hostile with zoners.
Secondly about harvesters. You may want to look at the equasion from both sides. Basically the Harvesters want certain piece of information from the zoners called the "alpha code" which the zoners didn't want to give up likely. So the Harvesters launched an attack on Gran Canaria and started harvesting zoner ships to obtain traces of info on it. Then basically the zoners called a ceasfire for a deal to be done on the alpha code in which they set a trap.
So technically the zoners arent to blame for the Harvester - Zoner relationship, entirely.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Linkus - 01-27-2009
Also remember that the edgeworlds in Freelancer are Nothing like the real world. The USA couldn't attack France since it relies upon so many other countries a lot to keep going. The Corsairs only need food, which the Zoner freeports can easily provide and as such, would be a very attractive target for them. Hell, it's the Juggernaughts that are keeping the Zoners safe in their neutrality in the Omicrons.
The Corsairs would openly denounce the Harvesters probably but would privately love them for taking on the Zoners, simply because it weakens them enough for the Corsairs to eventually take over.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Zelot - 01-27-2009
Ash I would think twice before saying the Corsairs would choose the Harvesters over the Zoners. Let's be clear here, the Harvesters are NOT allied with the Corsairs, they are allied with the OPG. There is a big difference. This whole Harvester/Corsair thing was done without consultation of the other Corsair factions. The OPG and Harvesters made this deal (while both were unofficial no less), that does not mean that the other Corsair factions or the Corsairs as a whole would side with the Harvesters over the Zoners, I would actually assume a neutrality in a Harvester/Zoner conflict.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Jubal - 01-27-2009
Zoners are about as "allied" with Corsairs as Stalin was with the United States in the last weeks of WWII.
It is a forced relationship where each side plays the other (which is also in the bar news). The might of the Zoners is the only thing keeping the Corsairs from moving against them--that's why the Zoners have such a formidable military.
It's extremely edgy cold war detente basically. Each side understands the other is cooperating only so long as there is something in it for them.
Sort of like The US or Europe trying to make "peace" between Israel and the Arabs. Zoners are the resented foreign influence that has enough force to make it influential and makes each side want to have the influence on their side.
The unspoken threat is, "Corsairs, if you won't work with us, the Outcasts might" and vice versa.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Ash - 01-27-2009
I am not proposing the Harvesters allied with the corsairs.
But the fact that the corsairs will more likely lean to the harvesters as opposed to the zoners. Like Linkus said, if you have a good dig around in the news reoports and rumors the Corsairs can't wait to get a chance to step into the zoners shoes in Omicron Theta. The Harvesters provide an advantagous factor that could play their way.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Zelot - 01-27-2009
' Wrote:I am not proposing the Harvesters allied with the corsairs.
But the fact that the corsairs will more likely lean to the harvesters as opposed to the zoners. Like Linkus said, if you have a good dig around in the news reoports and rumors the Corsairs can't wait to get a chance to step into the zoners shoes in Omicron Theta. The Harvesters provide an advantagous factor that could play their way.
Yes but there are many Corsairs who see the Harvesters as no better than the Nomads, just another type of Alien. We have our prejudices just like everyone else, and Corsairs tend not to be a freind to aliens.
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Ash - 01-27-2009
' Wrote:The Harvesters provide an advantagous factor that could play their way.Nonetheless
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Zelot - 01-27-2009
' Wrote:Nonetheless
By that logic if the Sairs thought the Nomads were advantageous, which they are as they attack the houses, I am sure that would mean the Corsairs would be friendly with the jellies too? right? Whats the difference alien is alien
Harvester vs. Zoner war & Zoner House - Gemini893 - 01-27-2009
' Wrote:Ash I would think twice before saying the Corsairs would choose the Harvesters over the Zoners. Let's be clear here, the Harvesters are NOT allied with the Corsairs, they are allied with the OPG. There is a big difference. This whole Harvester/Corsair thing was done without consultation of the other Corsair factions. The OPG and Harvesters made this deal (while both were unofficial no less), that does not mean that the other Corsair factions or the Corsairs as a whole would side with the Harvesters over the Zoners, I would actually assume a neutrality in a Harvester/Zoner conflict.
I wish I could find that thread to read more on that alliance and what, exactly, the OPG and Harvesters gain from each other, and how OPG overcame the prejudices that Zelot spoke of in a later post.
As for Corsairs coveting Zoner bases, I have no doubt. Zoners tend to be wealthy and build bases accordingly. This does not change the fact that Corsairs and Zoners are unofficially cozy for mutual benefit. If anything, that point in my first post has been reinforced by comments here.
And, in role play, if things did get sour between Corsairs and Zoners then we would see one of my points happen that hasn't been touched on (as far as what I saw before typing this reply), and that would be that Zoners would deport, kick out, or otherwise rid themselves of a faction on their bases that they deem a threat. That is something you can't ignore in this debate. Corsairs and Zoners are careful of each other but still use each other for mutual benefit. This makes OPG's position a dangerous one. Not to mention, I hope any OPG faction members make Zoners hostile in their reputations to disallow use of Zoner bases or it may look, to the Harvesters, like OPG is double dealing with them.