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+---- Thread: Analysis: Xeno Guns (/showthread.php?tid=159569)
Analysis: Xeno Guns - Sand_Spider - 03-28-2018
EDIT: With @Antonio being the new Balance Team lead, I bounced this thread his way, and after his input, I have updated Proposal #4 (The most popular choice) and listed the tweaks at the end of this post.
EDIT #2: Welp. Antonio is no longer Balance Team lead, so I'm looking at the original 8.33/650m/s re-vamp idea. See post #22.
EDIT #3: Please see Post #30. @Durandal has now given input on this thread, so I've re-re-adjusted the proposal to be 6.67 650m/s, 800m guns, again. According to @Durandal, a 8.33 Particle ain't happenin'. Sorry, folks!
I have noticed a trend in Xeno players as of late. Fewer and fewer Xenos these days have been sticking with using their own guns. Those that do, usually slap them aboard the hulls of Hellfire Legion ships. For those Xenos who stick with civilian ships, more often than not, I tend to see them using anything but their own factional guns. To those few who stick with Black Widows and Eagles, Marauders and Griffins, I salute you for sticking with good ol' fashioned Xeno knowhow!
Alas however, the current state of Xeno weaponry seems to be in a bit of a conundrum. Black Widows have gone from being the most powerful, most energy hungry human 4.00 with 699m/s to an interesting balanced state in the form of a relatively efficient damage:energy ratio weapon. With many 4.00s these days being middle-of-the-road, Black Widows seem to fit in with the trend, rather than breaking it.
And then we have the Suntiger.
Offering a pitiful 571 damage per shot to the Black Widow's 681 damage per shot (with both being 4.00), the Suntiger leaves much to be desired. What seems to be an attempt to offer the Xenos an "energy efficient" alternative to the Black Widow, feels in reality like something that was simply overlooked in the recent hashing of class 7 and 8 guns into a single category. On top of this, the Suntiger's 511m range compared to the Black Widow's 715m leaves it all but useless when engaging gunboats and transports who are toting Solaris or Dulzians (Which have a longer range than Suntigers, but fall short of a Black Widow's range). Combine a low damage ratio with a 214m range disadvantage, and it's no wonder I see almost no Xeno going anywhere near a Suntiger.
Thus, I would like to propose a change to Suntigers. Xenos are, to this day, the most shot-at faction in Liberty. Even when shooting NPCs to adjust reputation, the frequent solution is to "Shoot Xenos." They're the last faction in the game who still lacks Gunboat usage, and are still quite frequently, the focused target in mixed group fights, often leading to Xenos being both outnumbered and out-classed. Knowing this, I feel that their snubs should be properly equipped with high damage, low efficiency bursty-style weapons.
For the sake of analysis and discussion, I've gone ahead and included multiple proposals of how we might change the Suntiger Particle Cannon below. If you'd like to vote on one of them, feel free - Or offer your own suggestion! Alternatively, you can also tell me that I'm crazy and to leave Suntigers alone.
Suntiger Proposal #1 - This is a simple average between Hellfire Legion and Liberty Rogue 8.33s
Hull Damage: 310
Shield Damage: 155
Range: 550m
Projectile Speed: 750m/s
Refire Rate: 8.33
Energy Usage: 84
Suntiger Proposal #2 - Here we have a more powerful, faster, hungrier alternative to PG Chain Guns, with a lower range.
Hull Damage: 430
Shield Damage: 215
Range: 511m
Projectile Speed: 750m/s
Refire Rate: 6.67
Energy Usage: 113
Suntiger Proposal #3 - Compare this to an Outcast Wyrm, and this seems a bit overpowered in comparison. They're hungrier on the core, however.
Hull Damage: 950
Shield Damage: 475
Range: 650m
Projectile Speed: 700m/s
Refire Rate: 3.03
Energy Usage: 235
Suntiger Proposal #4 - I personally like this one, since it breaks the repetitive trend in 8.33s
Hull Damage: 340
Shield Damage: 170
Range: 800m
Projectile Speed: 650m/s
Refire Rate: 8.33
Energy Usage: 92
In all proposals, the plan would be to retain the Particle-typing of the Suntiger. This is because Xenos are, as I mentioned before, usually dog piled upon in most engagements, and thus I feel, need to have some sort of tech advantage to compensate. Though I don't currently have a Xeno character at the time of writing, my playstyle as a Xeno in years past was to "Dump my core, then dodge until I'm full," which seems to suit the Xeno playstyle, in my mind.
Do you like one of the proposed stat blocks? Is there something you would alter, or are Suntigers fine as-is? I feel like Xenos should be using their own tech more often, rather than simply defaulting to Legion weapons and ships because they're superior. As such, this is an attempt to give everyone's favorite(?) rednecks some love! Lastly, keep in mind that while Xenos can use Legion tech at 100%, the reverse is opposite - Legion IDs cannot even use Xeno guns at 75%, so there is little risk of a sudden horde of Legion snubs toting Suntigers around.
Feedback is desired and appreciated! Let's discuss!
UPDATE:
Suntiger Proposal #4, Version 3
Weapon Type: Undecided
Hull Damage: 424
Shield Damage: 212
Range: 800m
Projectile Speed: 650m/s
Refire Rate: 6.67
Energy Usage: 114
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - TheShooter36 - 03-28-2018
OR, give them a GLORIOUS 2.00 SHOTGUN!
Hull Damage: 1650
Shield Damage: 825
Range: 650m
Projectile Speed: 650m/s
Refire Rate: 2.00
Energy Usage: 555
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Galaxian - 03-28-2018
I'd say just equal out the Suntiger's range and cut back the power a bit, or leave the power where it is.
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Sand_Spider - 03-28-2018
(03-28-2018, 07:33 PM)TheShooter36 Wrote: OR, give them a GLORIOUS 2.00 SHOTGUN!
Hull Damage: 1650
Shield Damage: 825
Range: 650m
Projectile Speed: 650m/s
Refire Rate: 2.00
Energy Usage: 555
Good lord, that's over 1,000 energy per second....
They already have access to a 2.00 at 100% in the form of the Legion's Judgment Mk II, however.
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Evo - 03-28-2018
(03-28-2018, 07:34 PM)Galaxian Wrote: I'd say just equal out the Suntiger's range and cut back the power a bit, or leave the power where it is.
And will you be using them? Widows aren't power hungry enough for us to need or want the suntiger being what it is, even with range buffed up. They used to be power hungry but have since been equalized when we took the 700m/s to 650m/s nerf that also adjusted the damage and energy usage.
(03-28-2018, 07:33 PM)TheShooter36 Wrote: OR, give them a GLORIOUS 2.00 SHOTGUN!
Hull Damage: 1650
Shield Damage: 825
Range: 650m
Projectile Speed: 650m/s
Refire Rate: 2.00
Energy Usage: 555
#1 We have access to HF 2.0's
#2 No "bandit" unlawful group has 2.0's, it's unprecedented and they are usually left for military factions.
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Kyoi - 03-29-2018
You guys already have civilian ships with broken hitboxes and absurd stats. Your guns dont need to become particle deshielding monsters with high dps.
Furthermore, sammaels are balanced around werewolves (6gun shf) and greyhounds (5guns). Not eagles and definitely not 7 gunned scrapers.
If anything a speed reversion to 700m/s will do. Nobody wants to use 650 m/s low dps low accuracy awkward refire that cannot shotgun or spray. A lot more people will use it as a more efficient alternative to garand ix
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Evo - 03-29-2018
You uhm.. you realize civilian tech is not Xeno tech, right? Just checking. Literally anyone can use Eagles or scrapers. It's not relevant to this. Rogues can use sammaels on eagle and scraper. Think that one through a little more next time.
Getting our 700m/s back wouldn't be bad at all though. I was told when it was done "oh no now they sync better with debs" but I mean it means using 650 debs instead of 750
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Kyoi - 03-29-2018
90% core on eagle/scraper with sammaels is in no way viable against anyone decent in 1v1 who can abuse your energy wastage and totally garbage in group fights and you would be better off with normal flashpoints. Anyone can use them, but nobody else is asking for broken guns on top of OP ships with 100% core.
Going by your argument of anyone can use them, what you need isnt ridiculous gimmick guns but your own ships.
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Sand_Spider - 03-29-2018
Alternatively, perhaps a 650m/s 8.33 is better off as a Photon-type?
RE: Analysis: Xeno Guns - Evo - 03-29-2018
Perhaps suggest something you view as a good thing to do with Suntigers, then? That's what this is all about. Xenos want to use Xeno weaponry where possible. We've always viewed what was done with suntigers as a lazy write-off because we have access to other factions' guns. As a result, Xenos get to use their own tech less unless they're one of the very few people that actually use 4.0's.
We're working on our own VHF, though.