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+--- Thread: Additional Rules for all Factions. (/showthread.php?tid=162725)
Additional Rules for all Factions. - Cy Kazama - 07-14-2018
Greeting developement team and fellow Pilots,
recently I as a red hessian wanted to team up with friends who would play another faction allied to the rh and I found out that I am not in position to help any pilot outside of ZOI since it is restricted by my own ID rules. As a result i tried to figure out why it would make sence to have such restriction? In fact i found no argument that would underline this rule.
Here are the Red Hessians ID rules:
-Can attack any ships within their Zone of Influence, except transports.
-Can demand cargo and credits from any ship within their Zone of Influence, and attack them if they do not comply.
-Can treat ships carrying Artifacts as combat targets.
-Cannot ally with any lawfuls except with Interspace, or Rheinland lawfuls against Liberty lawfuls.
-Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.
-Zone of Influence: Rheinland, Omegas, Cambridge, Omicron Theta, Omicron Gamma
By logic there can not be any restriction for members of any faction to attack another ship. A pirate would not be a pirate if he would not have the possibility to do so. But I see it as a usefull need for a player to only have true freedom with in the rules of faction ID inside ZOI.
I THINK THE FOLLOWING CHANGE IS A NECESSARY NEED TO IMPROVE THE POSSIBILITY OF PLAYER INTERACTION TO HAPPEN.
-escorting a player which belongs to the same faction or an allied faction
(this is basically enabling players to assist their group members if they are being attacked and are allied by reputation)
Reasons for this Change:
- it would open up smuggling to unlawfull factions with escorts -> more conflict and player interaction
(in addition we would need rules for this scenario -> [Suggestion] players that stop the convoy inside their zoi must 1st kill the escort if the transport agrees to stay still, if it decide to run before escort is dead it can be killed immidiately)
-as stated in caps it would increase player interaction and with it the possibility to do even bigger battles
( another optional restriction in that case could be that players which are hostile to eachother can not even team up if they have another member in their group that is allied to both of them)
In addition i think that following change would make sence, too.
[HIGHLY OPTIONAL] -> focus on the idea about escorts
- ability to engage on a member of a hostile faction by reputation outside of ZOI
(what reason would there be to not be able to attack enemies whereever you meet them?)
Reason: Realistic inRP behaviour ( I simply would like to refer to the storyline where rheinland military ships uncloaked and attacked in a system outside of their ZOI)
Effect:
-if a player that belongs to a faction which has the specific system where the event took place as their ZOI they would receive lower penalty in case of death (15- 30 minuts)
- if the player on the other hand does not belong to a faction which has the system as their ZOI and they die. ( in case the player engaged)
Possible penalties:
->can't enter the entire ZOI of that faction for 1 day
->can't enter the system they died in for 1 day and must pay 5.000.000$ or 10.000.000$ as penalty to the player who killed him
->can't enter the system they died in for 1 day
The idea behind this suggestion for a change is to give each faction more stuff to do and encourage them to leave their ZOI from time to time
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Lythrilux - 07-14-2018
It's a tricky one this. It's something I've been mulling over. On the one hand, it definitely makes sense that all IDs should be allowed to defend friendly or allied ships in a convoy or interaction outside of their ZoI. But there's a lot of pitfalls in achieving this.
Let's do a hypothetical where all IDs can now assist outside of their ZoI. If say, a GRN pilot was roleplaying with a KNF in New Tokyo, and then that KNF gets engaged by Blood Dragons, logically they would assist. But let's say a player now parks a BAF battleship in the Omicrons, and frequently undocks it to partake in pews alongside The Core against Order, arguably the player is now using that line in a way it wasn't intended: to hop into random pews outside of their ZoI.
To limit the abuse, you could say, make it so that players can only assist transports outside of their ZoI (in convoys and the like). One flaw that comes to mind with this, however, is people like OoRPTrader_12 could do things like park his Liberty Dreadnought in Tau-23 and shoot Outcasts that attack his fellow miners/haulers friends in the Niobium field.
All in all, whilst there are certainly individuals who'd use the line intelligently under logical circumstances, it could also be up for easy abuse via using the line for purposes unintended. And based on my experience; there was a period of time where Red Hessian cruisers would frequently come to Kappa and shoot at [AI] for some reason; validating that behaviour may not be wise.
It was why the Staff nerfed the CR ID (they took away the line that allowed it to assist ships everywhere). There was at least one case of a =CR= player using the line to just hop into random pews outside of its ZoI. I believe the Staff also gave a similar nerf, or a nerf of some kind, to the ALG when [ALG] tried being Sirius police (I remember a sanction or something?) and would shoot at Rogues alongside Lib Lawfuls. In both these cases, official faction members were at fault, and thus limiting the line to just official factions may also not come without problems.
At the end of the day, as you've actually highlighted in some ways in your post, the human factor in trying to balance this is too great, and to at least get it to a point where it wouldn't be abusable you'd probably have to draw up an entirely new set of rules. Complicated rules. And then some. The best solution may be for the incorrect use of the line to be sanctionable, and for all reports against it reviewed on a case by case basis. But that'd also add paperwork.
I'm also fairly sure there's an unwritten rule that you can defend people of the same ID both in and out of your ZoI. It should really be cemented within the actual rules though.
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - WesternPeregrine - 07-14-2018
"- Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation."
This is what you think it should happen right? But it seems it's not included in any unlawful ID by default.
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Cy Kazama - 07-14-2018
(07-14-2018, 08:46 PM)WPeregrine Wrote: "- Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation."
This is what you think it should happen right? But it seems it's not included in any unlawful ID by default.
exactly this line which would look like following for all factions that dont have such rule included:
"- can escort and assist allied ships attacked by members of factions which are neutral or hostile by IFF"
-> the ability to trade contraband would be encouraged by that change for example or a player that plays just one faction would have even more things to do by giving alliances a true meaning this way.
In Addition Factions like Coalition would receive an extra line that would still restrict them from joining into a conflict the emerged out of pirating transports in anyway.
"- is not allowed to attack transports as a result of grouping up with an allied faction which has the ability to do so when these transports refuse to fulfill certain requests."
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Cy Kazama - 07-14-2018
(07-14-2018, 08:21 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Let's do a hypothetical where all IDs can now assist outside of their ZoI. If say, a GRN pilot was roleplaying with a KNF in New Tokyo, and then that KNF gets engaged by Blood Dragons, logically they would assist. But let's say a player now parks a BAF battleship in the Omicrons, and frequently undocks it to partake in pews alongside The Core against Order, arguably the player is now using that line in a way it wasn't intended: to hop into random pews outside of their ZoI.
To limit the abuse, you could say, make it so that players can only assist transports outside of their ZoI (in convoys and the like). One flaw that comes to mind with this, however, is people like OoRPTrader_12 could do things like park his Liberty Dreadnought in Tau-23 and shoot Outcasts that attack his fellow miners/haulers friends in the Niobium field.
All in all, whilst there are certainly individuals who'd use the line intelligently under logical circumstances, it could also be up for easy abuse via using the line for purposes unintended. And based on my experience; there was a period of time where Red Hessian cruisers would frequently come to Kappa and shoot at [AI] for some reason; validating that behaviour may not be wise.
It was why the Staff nerfed the CR ID (they took away the line that allowed it to assist ships everywhere). There was at least one case of a =CR= player using the line to just hop into random pews outside of its ZoI. I believe the Staff also gave a similar nerf, or a nerf of some kind, to the ALG when [ALG] tried being Sirius police (I remember a sanction or something?) and would shoot at Rogues alongside Lib Lawfuls. In both these cases, official faction members were at fault, and thus limiting the line to just official factions may also not come without problems.
Players abusing gamemechanics on purpose should be punished if they fail to understand and explanation along side a request to stop his actions in those regards
Jut because players abuse certain mechanics it does not mean that those mechanics must be changed but the players must learn to use these mechanics appropiate
If a player decide to leave his factions ZOI while not being in any group he would basically only act in form of self protection anyway because the chances to run into a hostile player outside of their ZOI would be very low. It is exactly the reason why i changed the OP to focus on the idea on a new rule regarding the escort of an allied ship.
Its just that my imagination refuses to accept that an inRP a character meeting a hostile counter part would ignore him since he is out of his ZOI. And paying attention to the hostile counter part does not neccesarily mean to engage them (even though i learned that players tend to use basic rp patterns often e.g. a pirate meeting a transport).
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - WolfO9 - 07-15-2018
(07-14-2018, 09:40 PM)Cy Kazama Wrote:(07-14-2018, 08:21 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Let's do a hypothetical where all IDs can now assist outside of their ZoI. If say, a GRN pilot was roleplaying with a KNF in New Tokyo, and then that KNF gets engaged by Blood Dragons, logically they would assist. But let's say a player now parks a BAF battleship in the Omicrons, and frequently undocks it to partake in pews alongside The Core against Order, arguably the player is now using that line in a way it wasn't intended: to hop into random pews outside of their ZoI.
To limit the abuse, you could say, make it so that players can only assist transports outside of their ZoI (in convoys and the like). One flaw that comes to mind with this, however, is people like OoRPTrader_12 could do things like park his Liberty Dreadnought in Tau-23 and shoot Outcasts that attack his fellow miners/haulers friends in the Niobium field.
All in all, whilst there are certainly individuals who'd use the line intelligently under logical circumstances, it could also be up for easy abuse via using the line for purposes unintended. And based on my experience; there was a period of time where Red Hessian cruisers would frequently come to Kappa and shoot at [AI] for some reason; validating that behaviour may not be wise.
It was why the Staff nerfed the CR ID (they took away the line that allowed it to assist ships everywhere). There was at least one case of a =CR= player using the line to just hop into random pews outside of its ZoI. I believe the Staff also gave a similar nerf, or a nerf of some kind, to the ALG when [ALG] tried being Sirius police (I remember a sanction or something?) and would shoot at Rogues alongside Lib Lawfuls. In both these cases, official faction members were at fault, and thus limiting the line to just official factions may also not come without problems.
Players abusing gamemechanics on purpose should be punished if they fail to understand and explanation along side a request to stop his actions in those regards
Jut because players abuse certain mechanics it does not mean that those mechanics must be changed but the players must learn to use these mechanics appropiate
If a player decide to leave his factions ZOI while not being in any group he would basically only act in form of self protection anyway because the chances to run into a hostile player outside of their ZOI would be very low. It is exactly the reason why i changed the OP to focus on the idea on a new rule regarding the escort of an allied ship.
Its just that my imagination refuses to accept that an inRP a character meeting a hostile counter part would ignore him since he is out of his ZOI. And paying attention to the hostile counter part does not neccesarily mean to engage them (even though i learned that players tend to use basic rp patterns often e.g. a pirate meeting a transport).
Yes they should be punished like all cheaters should, however, people can’t report them since they are „following the rules“ and people will abuse it like they have abused other mechanics as well for their own oorp experience
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Unseelie - 07-15-2018
Today, as a GRN, I forced a trader to reroute his cargo. He was never in my group, and I ended up way out of my zoi before I made sure that he didn't deliver resources to Bretonia.
I think I ought have the right to defend him, if he were to get pirated.
So I think anyone I'm escorting, even if I'm outside my zoi, should count as me, for purposes of "can defend if attacked"
I shouldn't be able to initiate fights, and I probably shouldn't stay in the area very long. But this guy shouldnt' be defenseless either.
I think that's a grey area that should be sorted out.
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Cy Kazama - 07-15-2018
(07-15-2018, 03:37 AM)WolfO9 Wrote: Yes they should be punished like all cheaters should, however, people can’t report them since they are „following the rules“ and people will abuse it like they have abused other mechanics as well for their own oorp experience
changing or removing a mechanic that is being abused by one player is a punishment for all players. Sometimes there are ways to secure mechanics from possible abuse.
I for example found out that I can kill npc's of the faction that i belong to while not being attacked back. So players could abuse that mechanic to kill battleships and dreadnoughts from their own factions to take their loot.
So while giving players these new rules they can act with the ID should also include restrictions for these new rules. I just gave an idea on how to expand playerinteraction. The result does not have to look exactly the way I described it. I am sure that it is posibble to add these new rules with certain restrictions, which can still be adjusted afterwards, if the restrictions are not sufficient.
Make the abusement of gamemechanics punishable if the abusing player does not understand that it is wrong to abuse game mechanics.
I too think that unseelie had the rightto escort. BUt because of ID rules he could have been punished for rule violation. If the player encountering that group would be mad about the situation ...
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Thyrzul - 07-15-2018
A line such as "Can assist allies or neutrals outside of your Zone of Influence" could be anyone's ticket for circumventing ZoI limitations. All you need to do is keep a local character in your group to initiate a brawl, then a whole fleet of a faction unrelated to the region, as far from their own ZoI as possible, can just pile on the opponents with the excuse of "we are just defending allies/neutrals".
Such abuse is difficult to prove or disprove for punishment instead of prevention, and then one could easily argue allies going this far in defense of eachother is unreasonable and unrealistic. Thus it's just easier to keep such allowances for allied assistance within the ZoI as well, past that allies could just tell eachother inRP that "sorry, we would help if we could, but you know, we aren't omnipotent". A reasonable ally would understand that either way, after all nobody is omnipotent. Nobody should be.
Such abuse is difficult to prove or disprove for punishment instead of prevention, and then one could easily argue allies going this far in defense of eachother is unreasonable and unrealistic. Thus it's just easier to keep such allowances for allied assistance within the ZoI as well, past that allies could just tell eachother inRP that "sorry, we would help if we could, but you know, we aren't omnipotent". A reasonable ally would understand that either way, after all nobody is omnipotent. Nobody should be.
RE: Additional Rules for all Factions. - Cy Kazama - 07-15-2018
(07-15-2018, 02:24 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:A line such as "Can assist allies or neutrals outside of your Zone of Influence" could be anyone's ticket for circumventing ZoI limitations. All you need to do is keep a local character in your group to initiate a brawl, then a whole fleet of a faction unrelated to the region, as far from their own ZoI as possible, can just pile on the opponents with the excuse of "we are just defending allies/neutrals".
Such abuse is difficult to prove or disprove for punishment instead of prevention, and then one could easily argue allies going this far in defense of eachother is unreasonable and unrealistic. Thus it's just easier to keep such allowances for allied assistance within the ZoI as well, past that allies could just tell eachother inRP that "sorry, we would help if we could, but you know, we aren't omnipotent". A reasonable ally would understand that either way, after all nobody is omnipotent. Nobody should be.
Sorry you are making it to easy yourself to find reasons against such rule. And again i must refer to the details which would have to be made up for such rule yet again. ( For example: if the player one escorts decides to engage the allies might not be able to join the fight. Unless there is some kind of registration of this group somewhere that gives information about the purpose of the group ( so it can be planed ahead kinda like the raids that happen from time to time)
Besides why would that be a bad thing? Isn't more player interaction what we are looking for here? Oh no you might die in a pvp fight -> the reason you decided to play an online version of that game in 1st place.
I dont mean to sound salty and I am sorry if it seemed that way. You would not meet such bigger group of people that would be hostile to you on a random occasion. Thus u can prepare for it by finding a group of players yourself.
I really think its easy to say applying such rule is impossible. But it can be done with a detailed explanation on how this rules can be used. Aren't we all looking for a nice RP experience? This is one possibility to achieve such experience!