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+--- Thread: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) (/showthread.php?tid=164968)
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Antonio - 10-04-2018
(10-04-2018, 08:20 AM)StDH Wrote: [color=#FF8000]Well, if we can grow a snub weaponry, why don't we grow BS guns and after some time an entire Ish'Tar?
Taking nomad guns and just putting them on a human ship just like that won't work. Imagine cutting a tentacle from an octopus and putting it on your car - nothing happens. The ship itself would need to have the interior hybridized with organic parts which can then connect to what we call "guns" which are just part of the organic system that's, alongside the human-made part, composing the whole ship. A good example is the Scorpion, which is literally that - a ship with organic and inorganic parts. Also look up roleplay regarding the Musashi and Schiller.
As for "growing an Ish'tar", one can only imagine how complex something like an Ish'tar is that "growing" it is simply too unrealistic, even if humans somehow figured out how to "grow" Nomad technology. Besides, how would you control such a ship when there hasn't been a way to command Nomads yet?
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Geoffacake - 10-04-2018
Since nomad guns are practically big blue jelly domes, I'd imagine the human and wilde counterparts to be a bell of a lot more complex than growing them.
There has to be some sort of ingenuity to not only grow the weapon segment, but it has to be coaxed into growing specific parts. Maybe the reason why the guns still have a human model is because the inner workings have to be augmented by electrical probes, guide rails, adapted power modules etc-- and probably why they're a hell of a worse than than the originals in terms of performance. Difficult to grow, difficult to use, and not practical.
So think of them as "A living thing specifically bred and trapped and enslaved in a metal cage, forced to do whatever its told by being electrocuted." But whatever, its not like these things are sentient, practically like growing a flower using selective breeding.
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - StDH - 10-04-2018
Well, humans have ways to keep parts of living beings alive. Even an entire human, just by replacing heart by an artificial pump.
So we could be able to control bigger parts of Nomad "flesh", given time and enough research. We already have that Nomad/LSC ship ;D
While uncrackable tech is kinda odd, but if devs decided ,... okay then.
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Sombs - 10-04-2018
The biology of nomads themselves is not comparable with animals, though, since they are crystalline, except for the incubus, which is a species on its own. The Tundra is a bad example because it is a hybrid ship controlled by Nomads and Infected, just like the special warships that looked like Marduks built by Rheinland in vanilla were. It's one thing to do these things as Wild. It's a WAY other thing to do these things as human without help of the Light.
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Chrysalis - 10-04-2018
Nomads are parasitic, capable of infesting and adapting ships, weapons and living beings to their purposes. But they can't be -made- to do it. The question is, are you allowed to do it? Or are you willing to be their slave for the perks. Those two things might also be one and the same.
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Aaron_Cianci - 10-04-2018
I know this topic kind of went off in the Nomad direction, but I'm far more interested in the "unhackable" Ageira white boxes. Are we really asserting that, in the Freelancer universe, humans have developed a method of physically containing something that is absolutely impenetrable?
TL;dr Version: Making comms unhackable makes sense - humans already have encryption that is near or completely unbreakable. However, we've never managed to build a way to contain or protect physical property that was 100% fool proof. Why would we allow that in Freelancer?
I think that's far-fetched, to say the least. Let's talk this out:
- The boxes are "scanner proof." That implies to me that there is some sort of scan-inhibiting material lined inside the boxes. Okay, that's believable. Lots of things disrupt scanners, and unless you can get that inhibiting material out of the box, you're not going to be able to scan the contents.
- The boxes are "tamper proof." I have a much bigger problem with this. How do you define tampering? What physical mechanism exists to detect tampering? If a shipping employee loading them onto a hauler accidentally caught his finger under the release for the box and pulled on it, would the box explode because it thought it was being tampered with? Without a technical explanation for how "tamper proof," the technology preventing tampering and a definition of "tampering," I think there is wiggle room here.
- The boxes can only be opened with "complex biometric keys." Biometrics are really easy to bypass - bribe someone (or a group of someones) with the authorized biometric details (fingerprint, retina, etc.) to open the box for you. In the Freelancer universe, where corruption and bribery are rampant, this one isn't even a challenge to bypass.
- The boxes "detonate if opened outside of an authorized facility." Again, same problem as with tamper proof. Explain that to me physically. Is it some equivalent of modern RFID technology? Some type of space GPS? Because both of those can be faked and bypassed, given the right resources and equipment.
- "Additional security measures are confidential." OK, fine. They're confidential - officially. But there's a lot of "confidential" information floating around in our role play universe that shouldn't be. Why would Ageira's secrets for how to protect white boxes be any different?
These are my thoughts. I don't think Ageira's white boxes should be nearly as impenetrable as they appear - though if someone really wanted to go at it, I do believe it's on the level of an SRP to penetrate their security. It would be Ocean's Eleven-style stuff, and not be easy. But it shouldn't just be disregarded as impossible.
My two cents,
Aaron
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - SnakThree - 10-04-2018
My humble opinion as long time player against or as Ageira is that lorewise security is impossible to break so that every house and every unlawful cannot simply copy it and make Ageira as a faction obsolete. Synth Foods have their patented Synth Paste and Gel. Cryer has their medicines. Planetform has their specialty too.
If we don't have these "protected and proprietary" products or services that are unique to certain factions, we end up with no specialized factions and that would dilute the unique atmosphere they create.
At roleplay level, factions would become obsolete. Why would you need X faction if every house would have access to Y product/service. It would lower the number of relationships and business opportunities. And that would be dull and sad.
Look at the current problem, of mining factions being on top of corporations feature-wise and most often activity-wise. Shipping Factions (no unique products, can only trade) < Manufacturing Factions (has unique products and can trade) < Mining Factions (Can mine and can trade with no drawbacks). Do you really think at this time of Freelancer Universe, only mining factions have the expertise to properly mine materials? Protected secrets eh? Or maybe just balance reasons that are explained in thinly veiled lore so it has some background behind the choices of developers.
There can be a lot of examples of where highly restricted piece of technology is protected and either lorewise or rulewise not allowed to get into 3rd parties and it is fine. It creates tensions and the need of working together to achieve something. Some would say it promotes aspects to establish community. But hey, who do I know, right? I am just a leader of Ageira Innovations, factions that dedicates itself to making Discovery a more interesting place and so far has not said "no", to advancement or creation of more Docking Rings, Jump Gates or Trade Lanes as long as it is according to established lore.
And I don't count loreless Docking Rings on Malta or Crete as established lore due to belief that Digital Anvil was lazy or did not have enough time to implement alternatives to Docking Rings. Currently, we have atmospheric landing capabilities that I would love to see on more unlawful planets or lawfully-claimed-planets-without-Docking-Ring-constructed-yet.
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - LaWey - 10-04-2018
Honestly, Ageira's technology have another, unhyped things around it. This is room temperature superconductors (manufactured by Ageira too, right), and not just super conductors, but they also seems not just break from significant magnet forces needed for compact (fighter-size) fusion (even on T+D fuel) reactors (this is VERY advanced tech, more important than boxes itself in really).
EFL seems just solve that problem by reduction of cryo system size, using more conventional superconductors. That thing not hyped as boxes and lane parts, but much more important for practical implementation of gravitoelectromagnetism manupalting technologies.
Even if you can reverse TL\JG mechanism of work, you still need couple of tech to produce even lab model of working stuff, and considering that crap mostly have big scale factor, even test samples probably should be builded near to full scale.
That speaking just about manufacture and maintenance, not speaking about other factors, like stabile operating of that thing without causing system-wide space catastrophes.
I mean, i heavy disagree with White Boxes "unhackable" overhyped plot armor, but, there MUCH of another logical reasons, why not anybody can build it.
That kinda like with uranium enrichment, you need good industry (and in multiple brunches) first to build molecular centrifuge for gas phase isotopes dividing in industrial scales. Technology itself very clear, but practicaly, creating of enrichment facility require more or less long work without interrupting(good example- Sadam's Iraq).
Also, in game you have not only lawful Ageira as secret keeper but also Hackers, who more than glad with status quo, where they have monopoly on that secrets too.
Upd. >Planetform has their specialty too.
Unfortunately for Planetform, they writed their speciality too clear, and end products have all things inside. Crayers by their stabiline broke Cardamine plot blackbox, made that lore even worse. Synth have another plane of conflict, which make copy of synthpaste ideologically bad for most of oppositing factions. That just not overhyped. Hype in Disco community much more decisive for anything.
TL;DR - Hype around boxes unhackable just propaganda, but Ageira and Hackers will kill you before you will know it. And even you know it, you need much more to build even working prototype from this knowledge.
And yes, snak3 absolutely right about ooRP reasons behind it, specialisation force interactions and conflicts, that should be. Just yes, it can be written much more good than right now, current situation is result of bad writing of sci-fi plot "blackboxes", they or writed too concrete for that role, or leave gaps for avoiding it, or just poor from scientifical side.(heavy scientifical inaccuracy broke immersion).
![[+]](/forums/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
That just for lulz(only partially)![[Image: 48.jpg]](http://www.kino.ru/photos/resizes/2001/48.jpg)
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Aaron_Cianci - 10-04-2018
(10-04-2018, 04:02 PM)SnakThree Wrote: My humble opinion as long time player against or as Ageira is that lorewise security is impossible to break so that every house and every unlawful cannot simply copy it and make Ageira as a faction obsolete. Synth Foods have their patented Synth Paste and Gel. Cryer has their medicines. Planetform has their specialty too.
If we don't have these "protected and proprietary" products or services that are unique to certain factions, we end up with no specialized factions and that would dilute the unique atmosphere they create.
At roleplay level, factions would become obsolete. Why would you need X faction if every house would have access to Y product/service. It would lower the number of relationships and business opportunities. And that would be dull and sad.
Look at the current problem, of mining factions being on top of corporations feature-wise and most often activity-wise. Shipping Factions (no unique products, can only trade) < Manufacturing Factions (has unique products and can trade) < Mining Factions (Can mine and can trade with no drawbacks). Do you really think at this time of Freelancer Universe, only mining factions have the expertise to properly mine materials? Protected secrets eh? Or maybe just balance reasons that are explained in thinly veiled lore so it has some background behind the choices of developers.
There can be a lot of examples of where highly restricted piece of technology is protected and either lorewise or rulewise not allowed to get into 3rd parties and it is fine. It creates tensions and the need of working together to achieve something. Some would say it promotes aspects to establish community. But hey, who do I know, right? I am just a leader of Ageira Innovations, factions that dedicates itself to making Discovery a more interesting place and so far has not said "no", to advancement or creation of more Docking Rings, Jump Gates or Trade Lanes as long as it is according to established lore.
And I don't count loreless Docking Rings on Malta or Crete as established lore due to belief that Digital Anvil was lazy or did not have enough time to implement alternatives to Docking Rings. Currently, we have atmospheric landing capabilities that I would love to see on more unlawful planets or lawfully-claimed-planets-without-Docking-Ring-constructed-yet.
I'm all for this, then. If the reason why we allow Ageira white boxes to be unhackable and the technology to be restricted to Ageira is to benefit the game, the server and the role play, then I am completely fine with it. No objections at all. Whatever makes the story and the server healthier, and gives people a reason to work together, I'm all for it!
I just wanted to make sure it wasn't somebody just deciding at some point in the past that they wanted to hoard something for the sole purpose of being selfish, exerting undue control over the player base and being a jerk, basically. It doesn't sound like that's the goal, so I'm good with it.
That being said, Ageira's proprietary technology is critical to one of the main functions of the game - man-made interstellar travel - and represents a complete monopoly over that critical function. To me, that's in a different class than Synth (nutrition, which can be obtained elsewhere, albeit in a different form), Cryer Pharmaceuticals (again, same thing, other companies make drugs) or Planetform (planetary terraforming, which doesn't actually influence our game play that much unless someone wants to SRP a new inhabitable planet).
Ageira definitely has the most game-affecting technical monopoly in existence. But, as long as it is for a good cause for Discovery, who cares?
RE: Un/Hackable things (clarification?) - Tenacity - 10-04-2018
Basically, ageira powergames their rp. U can no haz our stuffz