Is it time to Reconsider - Printable Version

Is it time to Reconsider - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Is it time to Reconsider (/showthread.php?tid=170800)

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Is it time to Reconsider - -Rax- - 05-24-2019

Well, where to start.

Firstly,I would like to thank everyone who's willing to drag his attention to this thread, even if that's an old and pretty extinguished topic. Thanks for understanding that's not an easy-arguing topic inflated with the flames which certainly burned inside some people at the beginning of the nerf. Saying that I won't inflate this flame, won't cause drama and won't swear/insult anyone, that's not a thread for that.
Secondly, this is not an arguing thread, as I said, this is a reconsideration one. A reconsideration from both parts, the ones disliking the snac nerf, and the ones which feel more comfortable or safe in disco 'till that gun was nerfed. I would also like to freely read commentaries that you have to apport on this topic.

8 months has passed after the balance plugin on the snac. For the ones who are not familiarized with the topic yet, the SNAC or Supernova Antimatter Cannon is a versatile bomber gun with a low speed, low angle but a very big dammage on hull and shields. The nerf took from it the versatility on the bomber class, leaving it useless on hitting Snubs. You can still, though, use it against capital ships. The dammage it takes and the energy it drains makes it, as said, useless when fighting Snub classes. This is the main topic of discussion that took part when the nerf happened. So, in order to clarify things, you could drain the whole percentage of LF's to Bomber classes' hull, which made it a good instakilling weapon.
Then the drama happened. Here some links about the discusion.

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[url=https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=164653]

I am not here investing time in explaining further the things that happened. We already know what happened, and it looks like we're already forgetting. I will give an opinion enhanced with proves that's worth taking a look at, that the nerf has been badly premeditated and probably a heart move from some people in the server.
So, here we go.

1. Taking into consideration that the gun existed for a long time, was firstly made for bombers, a heavy gunned class implemented to hopefully work against capital ships. A powerful ship class, with a slightly better armour than a very heavy fighter. Inside the Bomber, and that's an important point, we find 3 groups: 1. Light Bomber 2. Medium Bomber 3.Heavy Bomber. Each of them can wear heavy guns but, as the name might say, the light ones have a lower armour, lower powercore but more agility. The Light Bombers then changed the Bomber configuration and started to work against snubs, which were the balance part of flying a bomber ( they were useless against snubs so that's balanced). So where's the problem here in nerfing the snac. The bombers are fragile now against snubs. There's nothing to counter them aside of the Scatterguns, which are heavily unbalanced and noone took care of them, still.
-Noone is using Light bombers, beacuse there's nothing to do with them. I could make a poll where I can ask people if they have them working nowadays and won't have any idea what a Light Bomber is. So we killed a class.
-Medium bombers are still pretty useless. The heavy power is not really existant since there's not much of a difference between LB's and MB's. So we killed another class.
-Heavy bombers are useful against caps, but, frankly too easy targeted by >1 vhf pilots behind it. I've seen people using them for the sake of RPing and, well, they like to get banged, I guess.
To end this point, its easily saying and proving that in the current actuality of the disco era, few people is using bombers. And that's a fact that slightly decreases discovery's activity

2. Let's talk about the fact of snacing. There's a topic of discussion here. Is it a matter of skill? A matter of luck? A matter of both? The reason why it's been hated its because a very small part of disco pvp'ing people could use it and actually win in most of the situations, but , how does Snacing work?

Works by keeping a good range on your enemy, blindfiring your target above the cross and hitting. It's a matter of luck on 20% of the level, and there are many ways of learning to snac. It's learnable, and, read that carefully, EASILY avoidable. You just have to run from your target if you're down in shield, and in a matter of 15 seconds you will have your shields back, where you will be able to face the enemy bomber again.
So to conclude this point, is it really worth to nerf the snac according to it's Overpower? Or is it just a matter of luck? Or a matter of learning? That's up to you to answer.

3. Talking about instakilling guns, there are many of them. Let's put some examples. You're running on a fighter brawl and all of sudden someone with a capital ship and a Light Mortar setup finds the good moment to hit your ship with his guns. You get instakilled, and all he had to do is to turret steer and shoot at the cross when in range.
Dual Razor GB's and GB missiles. Nothing to talk about here. You can get instakilled.
Dual MR shuttles and SHF's. You get instakilled if you get hit by two, and again, in this ship you got more guns to counter the enemy if you fail.
Novas. 1 nova in hull and you're not the only one dying, but everyone in a range of 50-100 m AROUND the explosion.
. . .
So we're nerfing snac and leaving these killing machines to freely fly around the server.

4. That's the most contundent point and where you can think whatever you want. Basically Half of the Discovery population, for the facts of votations and personal communication, didn't approve the snac nerf.

These are the polls. Apparently was easy to nerf drastically that gun without asking. But politically speaking, putting an example the current 1st world Democracy, if a Party is winning on 51% , they don't have the total word in it. With that I'm talking about that drastic decision was taken without many people's approval. How would it that be, in my oppinion, a well made nerf according to numbers? You can simply nerf it in other ways. Range? Speed? Angle? There are many ways in doing it, but someone didn't take into consideration this polls.

5. Here's where we speak about actuality. Since that people who wasn't apparently in favour of that change, some of them left, some others lost interest in the game and are not playing as frequent as before, I can realize , and due to this change, we've lost activity in the server.
There are many theories in why this happened, but that's a solid one, like it or not. 8 months after the nerf and we're seeing that discovery's population decreased more drastically.
Another solid theory on what's going on is, including the snac nerf, the balancemagic out of RP and plugins going on in the game. By changing such stats you're making people loose interest in the game. About a snub, the Guardian, for example, it has been untouched for ages and it's already too outdated for being used. That's only another example of things not being taken into account, specially according to the people in the server.

Please, reconsider this topic. Doing mistakes is normal, and I believe the SNAC nerf was a big one. There's time to change that, and there's time to reconsider what kind of nerf could that gun have, if in your eyes it's still unbalanced.

Thanks.

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - Laz - 05-24-2019

(05-24-2019, 02:35 PM)-Rax- Wrote: if a Party is winning on 51% , they don't have the total word in it. With that I'm talking about that drastic decision was taken without many people's approval.

Brexit.

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - teschy - 05-24-2019

You have to address the root of the problem, which is the fact that snubs and caps are able to do damage to each other at all. Capital ships are grossly overpowered against snubs because they were balanced against other caps. Bombers, while they were not exactly overpowered in that regard, still have extremely powerful weapons that could instakill anything smaller than a gunboat, because they were designed to counter capital ships.

The only real solution to this is to redesign capital capital ships entirely, by giving them slower weapons and slower movement. Then they would be impractical to use against snubs. On the other side of the fence, bombers and their assorted weapons of mass destruction would have to be removed entirely as a concept and repurposed in a meaningful way.

As for dual razor SHFs being able to instakill fighters and other similar shenanigans, turning nanobots into hull points just like it was done for battle cruisers could be a viable solution.

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - SnakeLancerHaven - 05-24-2019

I just wish there would be a propper rework on all the Snubs. Give each class a role it can actually play. Like Light Fighters becoming the actual Interceptors we've known from many games as a deadly counter-heavy Fighter or Bomber ship, their new classes just drain too much energy and them being easily one mined doesn't make that fact easier. I know many have said you've to be a super-pro at dodging to manage LF and then it's actually cool, but I mean aren't all classes cool if you're a pro? 8|

Give Heavy Fighters a decent counter-role against Interceptors/LF's while very heavy Fighters are meant for a more efficient way of dealing with Bombers and Heavy Fighters. There was also something proposed by Lyth which I actually liked and supported that we should divide Fighter classes into Interceptor and just Fighter instead of the 4 Classes we have right now (but this is a personal wish, should be ignored as I think giving each class their own special role would make it alot more interesting).

Next to that, freaking...... Bombers. My Dudes, why can't we have a propper division between each class? Let Heavy Bombers be extra slow but that more powerfull with Torps (heavy slots) but give them lesser guns, let's say only 2. Turn Medium Bombers into what we have as heavy bombers right now and make the Light Bombers a perfect choice of multi-purpose with an actual useful SNAC like we used to have.

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - Loken - 05-24-2019

Eight months is a long time to keep complaining about something like this.

Edit: I don't think many governments run their elections using a forum poll of 60 people either.

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - LaWey - 05-24-2019

Spoiler

I guess only real thing is full rebalance, as Teschy and Snake said.

What if we will merge SHF and Light Bombers in one class? As it seems, SHF just fulfilled same niche what SNAC LB had before, used for same. Also this two classes placed in stupid rivalry - SNAC remove SHF completely, no SNAC - a lot of dual mr SHF. So maybe create new class from it, and make SHF as it should be, for really balanced between fighters and bombers?

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - evanz - 05-24-2019

(05-24-2019, 03:12 PM)Laz Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 02:35 PM)-Rax- Wrote: if a Party is winning on 51% , they don't have the total word in it. With that I'm talking about that drastic decision was taken without many people's approval.
Brexit.

so true

majority wins

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - -Rax- - 05-24-2019

(05-24-2019, 07:10 PM)Loken Wrote: Eight months is a long time to keep complaining about something like this.

Edit: I don't think many governments run their elections using a forum poll of 60 people either.

It's all about numbers. Noone asked for the nerf and noone considered some people wouldn't like that. I will keep saying we're ignoring that such changes were harmful for the disco activity. Even though, I've proposed some sort of solutions that might help both sides, but again I hardly doubt that's to be taken into consideration.

This thread wasn't meant to complain, was a commentary to re-think if that change harmed the server or not, and if does, some mesurement has to be applied. Again if we're not seeing it one could say that the snac nerf was a matter of hard feelings against it from 3-4 people that are "balancing" the game ( which, if any of you have any idea of pvping and ship balance, you'd see its completely not balanced at all) .

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - Nepotu - 05-24-2019

(05-24-2019, 07:10 PM)Loken Wrote: Eight months is a long time to keep complaining about something like this.

People will complain even years after for something that was really loved and in the game almost since the beginning of the mod

RE: Is it time to Reconsider - Saronsen - 05-24-2019

Nah chief no thanks