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+--- Thread: I am also a bit concerned (/showthread.php?tid=172708)
I am also a bit concerned - Madvillain - 08-13-2019
Today, while grave digging through the forums looking for an ancient meme about that time when Blodo had an invincibility bug (yes that really happened, yes that was hilarious), I stumbled upon a very old post of an old friend of mine. somewhere 2008 to be precise. It caught my eye and I kept reading. I realised that after all those years not much has changed and that it still is a post that's worth reading, considering I mean. To save you all the trouble of having to click on the hyperlink I'll quote it right here and you'll see what I mean.
"I have had quite a lot of people come to me recently saying how they're really upset with the culture here on the forums and in game.
It has got me thinking about some stuff.
I think we're vile to each other here... Utterly insensitive, cruel, dismissive, agressive, nasty, childish -and- condecending.
This needs to change.
Here is where I think the problem lies. We share this space, it may be virtual, but all the people who inhabit it are real, with real thoughts, insecurities, and emotion.
It is very -very- easy to forget that when you look at a paragraph of text someone has written, or the avatar they use, or their ship ingame, which is just a bunch of pixels after all. That distances us from the real person behind it all, and makes it a lot easier to be unpleasant and dismissive to them. I know I fall into this trap and it makes me genuinely sad.
This is something I think we all need to remember. When you're here, and roleplaying, or looking at the forums, remember that there is a real human behind every last letter, or movement of a ship.
This doesn't mean we can't disagree, but when we do we should treat the other people around with dignity and respect, for their views and standpoint. If we forget this we are, as a community, completely screwed.
I am saying this because I like this community, and many people in it have become friends of mine that I would stay in contact with long after either I leave, or the community fades.
None of us should ever forget how human everyone else here is.
Peace.
Joe.
EDIT: I'm not saying this from a doom-mongering "disco is falling apart... oh woe and strife" point of view. It's not. "
Now as I was reading this I wondered about how much I am guilty of this myself.
I suppose I try to be good to people, but I am definitely no st. Denis.
In fact I've been pretty unjust towards someone a while back, lashing out at him while he was just voicing his opinion.
It's stupid, and in retrospect I'm sure that sometimes I too contribute to a bad atmosphere in this community.
So I am wondering, are we closing in on the point where we are completely screwed as a community? It makes little sense because in general at least we all share a like/love for this game that we play together and that's the main reason we are here reading the forum, playing the game, first checking skype, now checking discord.
Still when I was gravedigging I couldn't help to notice that the general tone changed of the years, we are less and less tolerant to one another and more importantly less and less engaged with one another. No matter what state the game is in and if that is good or bad it is mostly strife between people that makes good people leave a faction or even leave the game as a whole.
I've decided that I am going to try harder to be fair towards people, to hear them out instead of overshouting them. I am not a saint but I also lack any skill and intellect to be a dev so this is probably the best way for me to contribute to this weird disco thing and its people that I grew up with and that I really love.
Because if I don't do that, and if that ends up with nobody doing that and everybody shouting at or about one another this community is at risk of only spiralling downwards.
And that leaves me a bit concerned.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Mark_Brown - 08-13-2019
Confession time:
We're all guilty of doing something. I for one try and make note of people holding factions for the sake of being "1ic syndrome" and letting it die rather than passing it on to someone that could boost that factions activity and make it great again.
I'm rather lash at how I do things, I speak my mind and I'm not afraid to tell someone they're doing a bad job. Activity isn't everything but being active on the forum alone isn't enough for this game to carry on. It is exactly that a game and people need to start logging in just to enjoy the RP side of the fun forget about the arguments, bitterness, how invalued you feel as a member of the community. Log in, and log in as a police faction. Guaranteed someone is watching the player list for someone to log for a bit of fun vs pirate ext. Login for just some genuine role play, talk to each other, start gossip make something up create events build a war. People enjoy wars here (in-game obviously)
Why do we all intend to keep holding ourselves back when we can do so much better?
I stepped down from USI not because of the 13 days of activity, but because I wanted a new challenge. So I stepped up into IC| and pushing pressure on pirate groups with the new bounty board I feel is a good contribution to the server as they're far more pirate groups than there is lawfully and to push people towards creating a bounty hunter character and targeting pirates.
I do my thing, it might not be in the best way, but it's always in favour of Discovery moving forwards not backwards.
Mark_Brown / Bellck
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Hemlocke - 08-13-2019
Unfortunately as time has gone on, you are correct. We've become less of a community and more like a cesspool. I know for sure I have been unjust in the way I've treated others, and let other's opinions influence my decisions as a player, ultimately forgetting alot I do in this game affects someone else in some form or another. Some of my cruelty was in response to cruelty but that doesn't justify it in the slightest, I agree that every one of us has a part to play in this community and that we shouldn't be so hostile, vile, toxic (whatever you want to call it) towards one another. Every one of us, good or bad, toxic or angelic, contribute to this community. The personal hatreds need to stop so we can move forward as a community.
I apologize for the role I've taken in contributing to this community's toxicity, and will curb towards optimism for my fellow player in the future.
Thanks for the wake up call, "Madvillain"
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Durandal - 08-13-2019
Still as true today as it was then. I was absolutely terrible to @"Sombra Hookier", @Miaou, @TheSauron, @Lythrilux, and a few others whose names I can't recall, in the not too distant past. I also absolutely lost my mind at @Kalhmera about a year ago. It sticks with me, and I feel wretched for it. I really worry a lot about virtue signaling with fresh blood in this community as well. How can anyone possibly see Discovery as a welcoming community when all we can seem to manage is trying to one up each other on a daily basis?
The key really is what Joe said there, to remember that there's another person on the end of the screen. Not going to namedrop here, but one of the most appalling things I've seen in recent memory was someone, who when confronted with that fact, simply said "I don't care."
...Well, god, why don't we? Not only are we talking about basic human decency, but anyone who enjoys this game and this community in the slightest has a vested interest in not driving others away from it, no matter how much their views may differ. We have got to start doing a better job of being inclusive, agreeing to disagree, and simply being gentle with one another. There's really no point to handling things any other way.
It costs nothing to show a little empathy, and try to see things from someone else's perspective, and the rewards can be quite great. I know I'm no saint, and none of us are, but we can all try just a little harder to make Discovery a better place.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Kalhmera - 08-13-2019
(08-13-2019, 09:18 AM)Durandal Wrote: . I also absolutely lost my mind at @Kalhmera about a year ago
We all make mistakes and there is nothing we can do to change it but that shouldnt stop you from trying to change and make it better and as far as I can see you have done that. I know you haven't asked for forgiveness but I forgive you Justin. dont let what happened in the past bring you down, use it as a learning experience and become a better person.
---
I know I am not very much liked in this community, some say im elitist, an a hole, but in all honesty im a very lonely and sad person and I struggle with PTSD and my place in this world and it all started when I left the Army. I know I haven't been kind to a lot of people here but I do try to better myself when I catch myself making a mistake. its all we can do really.
All in all we can all be a bit nicer to the next person and who knows it might just make this place that much better.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Altejago - 08-13-2019
(08-13-2019, 09:18 AM)Durandal Wrote: Still as true today as it was then. I was absolutely terrible to @"Sombra Hookier", @Miaou, @TheSauron, @Lythrilux, and a few others whose names I can't recall, in the not too distant past. I also absolutely lost my mind at @Kalhmera about a year ago. It sticks with me, and I feel wretched for it. I really worry a lot about virtue signaling with fresh blood in this community as well. How can anyone possibly see Discovery as a welcoming community when all we can seem to manage is trying to one up each other on a daily basis?
The key really is what Joe said there, to remember that there's another person on the end of the screen. Not going to namedrop here, but one of the most appalling things I've seen in recent memory was someone, who when confronted with that fact, simply said "I don't care."
...Well, god, why don't we? Not only are we talking about basic human decency, but anyone who enjoys this game and this community in the slightest has a vested interest in not driving others away from it, no matter how much their views may differ. We have got to start doing a better job of being inclusive, agreeing to disagree, and simply being gentle with one another. There's really no point to handling things any other way.
It costs nothing to show a little empathy, and try to see things from someone else's perspective, and the rewards can be quite great. I know I'm no saint, and none of us are, but we can all try just a little harder to make Discovery a better place.
Yeah, I've had my share of being a shit cunt. I've done it both intentionally and unintentionally. I've also had some pretty crap things happen to me as well. I own up to most of my mistakes, but I make no apology on who I am. At best I'd just say I'm reactive, but in all honesty this place is quite hostile and tends to bring the worst out in people.
I think the biggest challenge we face as a community is tolerance. There isn't any. I feel the biggest fuel this fire is the fact people invest so much emotion into the game it is hard to let go of what literally nothing but time. This place doesn't cost you anything but time, and it certainly doesn't build a future for you.
Again, I believe that until the arrogance of a majority of us in the community wanes off, we will continue to compete for nothing of any real relevance in life that is achievable here.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Yber - 08-13-2019
You say this while still limiting the people who can participate in events that involve you. Nevermind that you deny my personal participation which is understandable, but you pick and choose who is "cool" and who isn't.
Jihad Joe was a terrible example of this as well for as long as I knew him which wasn't much but certainly after 2008. He'd go mad after losing and log an admin ship with admin cannons to kill everyone involved. "Utterly insensitive, cruel, dismissive, agressive, nasty, childish -and- condecending" are all things I could have used to describe him and his behaviour.
Being a nasty ass to one another is fine. Most communities hold much worse grudges and behave far far worse than anything you'll see in discovery other than cap players messing with snub fights. The real problem is that people can create their bubbles in this game and be nigh untouchable in them, with tools at their disposal to make sure they can't be messed with while being able to mess with others themselves. If you see people you don't like in snubs fighting eachother, log a cap and barge in, but if the snub sees cap players he doesn't like, he can't do anything by going in. If I'm on a snub and a snub that's hostile logs, I tell my friend to log a cau VIII missile gunboat, and dock if I ever come close to losing.
You can't set grudges in this game, at least not anymore, because the people in power, those being admins or devs (it's the same) have always viewed situations from the "griefed" perspective. They'd rather have a situation where a person doesn't feel the frustration of dying rather than the satisfaction of winning, which is madness in a space shooter. If you lose, dock. If you think you can't win, dock. If you don't want to fight, dock. If you see a certain name in new players, log off. That's the behaviour that has been encouraged for years.
Get some thick skin and man up. This is a space shooter. If someone's mean to you you go kill them or die trying. That's how it should be.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Saronsen - 08-13-2019
Remarkably, JihadJoe was just as much of a hypocrite as he was a dude who stated the obvious.
Odd, that.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - Sombs - 08-13-2019
This community is a reflection of real life communities. People from all over the flat earth with very different opinions, world views, religions and social status. It's not just a Discovery issue, it's the current Zeitgeist. Being able to connect with everyone at an instant means that everyone can show their opinions at an instant without a night to sleep over it. In Discovery, this means you die ingame, can instantly open up a feedback thread or Discord and voice your anger. Since the internet protects people by keeping them as anonymous as they want to be, what does it matter? Just get the anger out of the system and pass it on to the one who caused it.
In Discovery, this spirals. I said it a few times already, but you can literally play any other game with Discovery people and they will become your metaphorical best friends. Every now and then I grabbed a few Discovery people and played Card against humanity, Skribbl.io, Starbound, Stardew Valley, Sanctum 2, Terraria, Stellaris, Sins of a Solar Empire, Warframe, SCP Secret Lab and other games with them. And it paid off damn well. I can only recommend you people to just invite some people, maybe not only your closest ones, to play some other games with you here and there, maybe every two weeks. A very different way of interacting with each other. No stakes, no humiliation.
And that's all Discovery is about. Discovery encourages to anti-social behavior because it thrives from it. It is literally like real life politics. In real life, you have political parties and try to make them better and make others worse. That's how politics work. Here you have factions, a clear set of rules and a very unclear set of PvP etiquette, roleplay etiquette, a tiny community where everyone knows who is behind what nickname/ping/ship and if you ask people what factions they like the most, they will obviously only mention the ones they are in, and automatically get dragged into conflict with the factions they are not in. Like in real life, people befriend with very vocal people and often defend these vocal people no matter whether they are right or wrong. These vocal people usually lead factions, and their less vocal supporters often stop thinking for themselves, because why agree with the enemy, right?
I stopped caring about these things. I left all factions I was in. BAF|MN, OSI, Core|APM, Vagrants. I had very good times in three of them, and I've helped a lot of other factions when it was requested, lika RHA/IMG/ALG during Omega-3, TBH when Pepe organized battles every week, LN and BAF here and there, NC- when it needed to farm online time, LPI when it needed onlinetime. I even gifted it with a new cruiser as the old San Quentin died from inactivity. In retrospect I regret doing the latter, though, since the ship I gifted them was renamed and is now owned by someone I didn't intend it to get.
I can say, staying away from factions, despite often having the urge to help, and even right now having the big urge to get a Valor and help the good people of the MRG to prevent ganks like these to happen again. But I sort of know it would be an effort in vain. I've watched many battles of the current event and the BAF/LN side doesn't seem to care at all about the MRG players, while whining the moment MRG has the upper hand. All in all I can say, as much as PvP can be fun, it often isn't, because everyone agrees that ganks are bad, but only when the enemy ganks you. I can't blame MRG for not wanting to log anymore, as right now, it would just be feeding some inconsiderate, blue-horny unsportsmen. So I stopped caring about PvP as well.
What does it leave you with? Not much. All I do recently is Forum RP and a bit of Discord RP with selected people. But that is what I personally enjoy the most. I look forward to see the next piece of french culture served on a silver plate by Lanakov, or reading the absolute axiom-breaking story Foxglove writes, The Doctor. While in the meantime, you have PvP people realizing they don't find many people to shoot anymore, and while some of them voice it in a more considerate way, the others call people like me out on being afraid of losing, not willing to spend weeks in Connecticut to get better in snubs and argue that you need to do PvP because Freelancer is a shooter game. Let me tell you: Freelancer is a game where you do what you want, not what others want you to do. I'm not afraid of PvP, but it doesn't give me much fun. Why would I stop doing things I consider fun, that also hurt nobody else, just to do things that please someone else with blue-addiction, that wastes my time and doesn't give me fun? Yelling at me won't change my opinion at all.
So I stopped being part of factions and stopped PvPing. And yet there are still some people who I don't want to deal with anymore at all, for another package of reasons. I've always tried to help people with my set of skills. Doing graphics, typing things for them, giving them ideas for their roleplays so that they can SRP something, or at least work towards it. I've logged with many people and for many people to give them something to do. I've gifted ships, items and credits to people to help them with their projects. I've learned how to mod pretty much all non-coded aspects of the game, and Eigos even taught me how to get my own models into the game. But I've come to notice that especially recently, people have more forced demands than respectful requests. Hey, do this and this for me, but I won't pay you credits or anything in return, thanks. Or I do things and then they won't get used. One of the biggest issues I've come to see is that people are nice to me until they have what they wanted, or they are nice to me for the sole reason of receiving what they want. Someone I absolutely despise for his actions tried to do that while shittalking me on other chats just a day later.
Those are repetitive patterns in Discovery, a place where few healthy people pass by to see a bunch of unhealthy people try their best to get the upper hand with pixels. People tried to scam me, people tried to get me to break the rules (and I'm pretty proud of being here for 3.5 years and not have a single sanction thread), someone sent me a picture of himself jerking off, someone yelled at a few days ago for kudosing MRG for still logging over and over again despite getting ganked with hilarious numbers. People tried to get me on their side in their conflict with other people, where I have no tangent with. All in all, you can ask for people to be nice, remind them of it being just a game, reminding them of other people being potentially nice to you at some point, but all in all, you can't turn an a-hole into a saint. People come to Discovery to escape from Real Life, where they can't always be what they truly are. Here on the internet they can be what they are and want to be without any care for other people. That is a fact. Because of that fact, enjoy your time with the people who are genuinely nice to you. If you find people that are fun with fly with and against, try to keep them close to you. If you find people who are fun, keep them close to you.
And for god's sake. don't let anyone tell you what you have to do in Discovery. Do only things that are giving you fun. If possible, without rule violations. If you manage to do that without even giving someone else a bad time, then you're probably Lanakov.
RE: I am also a bit concerned - SnakThree - 08-13-2019
(08-13-2019, 10:30 AM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: And for god's sake. don't let anyone tell you what you have to do in Discovery. Do only things that are giving you fun. If possible, without rule violations. If you manage to do that without even giving someone else a bad time, then you're probably Lanakov.
This is very important sentiment that I hope more people can understand and follow on their own.