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+---- Thread: GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber (/showthread.php?tid=17451)
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GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Dab - 03-09-2009
I mentioned this in the Bomber Balance thread, but its not exactly on-topic there, so I'm putting it here..
Quote: Price: 6263130 - C7-F "Orchid" Golden Chrysanthemum Bomber
The Orchid is the Golden Chrysanthemum's design, to rival the Blood Dragon bomber. The Blood Dragons assisted in her development, but the Chrysanthemums had a different set of specifications in mind. They wanted something that could rival military bombers, sacrificing some agility and speed for firepower and armour. The women that drive her wanted something that could deal a nasty blow, and were willing to sacrifice some, but not all, of the maneuverability of the Blood Dragon bomber, and as design progressed, it drifted more and more from its cousin ship. Ultimately, the final prototype of the Orchid resembled a Kusari Naval Forces ship, in both form and function.
Stats
Gun/Turret Mounts: 4/0
Armor: 15700
Cargo Space: 80
Max Batteries/NanoBots: 85/85
Optimal Weapon Class: 8
Max. Weapon Class: 10
Additional Equipment: M, CM, 2xCD/T
Extra-Stats
Mass: 225
Steering: 86000 85000 84000
Angular: 80000 80000 80000
Rotation: 20000 20000 20000
Nudge-Force: 30000
Strafe-Force/-Powerusage: 20000/2
In the infocard it states the ship sacrifices some agility and speed for firepower and armor. It also has very little power. However, on the armor issue.. The only bomber lower is the Farmers Alliance bomber at 15,000. Even the Kusari Bomber, which is twice as fast and smaller, has 16,800 armor. Dragon bomber at 16,000, and also twice as fast and smaller.
In return, the GC Bomber is huge. Twice the size of the Ku/BD Bomber from the front, top, bottom, and back. Lastly, its slow as hell. A freighter could outturn this thing..
So in total:
Low firepower
Low energy
Low turning
Large size
Low armor
It has no advantage whatsoever to the other bombers, and can be raped by just about everything. On top of that, it can be SNd extremely easily due to its size. It stands no chance against any ship beyond a transport.
Quote: Price: 6403130 - FA "Mamoru" Bomber
The Farmer's Mamoru or "Mama" bomber was designed by Samura for the Farmer's Alliance. Built at the small shipbuilding facility on Cape Soya Station, the Mama gives the Farmers a ship capable of quickly stripping transports shields while retaining enough agility to defend itself from hostile fighters. It's twin turret weapons setup is designed to give the Mama the ability protect it's blind spot with more firepower than other ships of the same class. The Mamoru is quickly developing a fearsome reputation amongst Synthfoods pilots flying in Kusari and the Sigma's. The Farmers have also sold Mama's to their Allies amongst the Gaians and Hogosha.
Stats
Gun/Turret Mounts: 2/2
Armor: 15200
Cargo Space: 81
Max Batteries/NanoBots: 85/85
Optimal Weapon Class: 9
Max. Weapon Class: 10
Additional Equipment: M, CM, 2xCD/T
Extra-Stats
Mass: 200
Steering: 85000 86000 82000
Angular: 80000 80000 80000
Rotation: 20000 20000 20000
Nudge-Force: 30000
Strafe-Force/-Powerusage: 20000/2
The FA bomber has many of the same problems, though its turn rate is a bit better. But it still has armor that is ridiculously low. Its energy is a little better though, and it has a good strafing ability. But to take this away, it only has 2 gun slots, then 2 turrets. Turrets generally giving less firepower than guns. And it can fire backwards, but that isn't really very helpful when all you've got is two turrets.. Any good HF pilot could easily avoid 2 turrets while raping the bomber, since it can't do much but strafe and do a slight curve when in rear view. Also, if these turrets don't fire forward, the FA Bomber has very little firepower in any direction.
So in total:
Lowest Armor of any bomber
Very low firepower
Low turn rate
Both of these ships need an armor increase of at least 2,000 (should be above the Ku and BD Bombers that are faster than them). The GC and FA Bombers also need a large turn rate increase (not sure on FA bomber), as well as an energy increase.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Jinx - 03-09-2009
well - the good thing is....
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/Ji...00-28-52-85.jpg
if we rebalance the GC bomber anyway ( and if frozen is so nice to make another hitbox ) - we can also pick the revised model, which wasn t included that time. - it looks better ( but its practicly as large as the current one ) - so only changing the looks.
about the bombers as such - are those two bombers like bombers ought to be? ( meaning the Ku-bombers are just too good ) or are they too weak ( meaning they need to be buffed up to become what bombers should be like )
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Dab - 03-09-2009
' Wrote:about the bombers as such - are those two bombers like bombers ought to be? ( meaning the Ku-bombers are just too good ) or are they too weak ( meaning they need to be buffed up to become what bombers should be like )This I don't know yet, as we haven't tested GC, FA, BD, or Ku bombers against bombers from other houses. Either the Ku/BD bombers are powerful (most likely), or the GC/FA bombers are weak.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - mjolnir - 03-09-2009
You are starting with incorrect information and use it to draw conclusions, that of course means that the conclusions can't be correct.
Since you deny any facts about the actual handling of the ships, I don't see any point in discussing this with you.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Kubotan - 03-09-2009
I'm sorry but I must agree with Mjolnir again, you did the same thing on your other balance proposal.
I have already stated my counter-arguments from that thread, I don't believe I need to recite them again.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Dab - 03-09-2009
For comparison:
Quote: Price: 5973130 - B69-R "Nodachi" Class Blood Dragon Bomber
Bearing only a vague resemblance to the original craft that grandfathered itself and its counterpart, the Umibozu, each Nodachi is a tailor crafted vessel passed through family lines with history as rich as any Samurai sword of old. While favoring manouverability and deftness of control over sluggish fortitude the exact specifications of each craft is melded to fit with that of its pilot. Refined and refitted time and again to meet the styles, thoughts and will of its pilot these craft provide a stunning and unearthly show of martial prowess upon the battlefield.
The sanctified nature of these craft dictate that they pass from father to son, from family to family. Each ship is a treasured tribute to battles fought and lives lost. To find one outside Blood Dragon hands is unthinkable and the deaths of those whom try is undeniable.
Stats
Gun/Turrets Mounts: 4/1
Armor: 16000
Cargo Space: 80
Max Batteries/NanoBots: 85/85
Optimal Weapon Class: 9
Max. Weapon Class: 10
Additional Equipment: M, CM, 2xCD/T
Extra-Stats
Mass: 250
Steering: 85500 85500 82500
Angular: 80000 80000 80000
Rotation: 20000 20000 20000
Nudge-Force: 30000
Strafe-Force/-Powerusage: 20000/2
Quote: Price: 5973130 - J50P-B3 "Umibozu" Class Kusari Bomber
Named for the demonic Yokai of legend, a terror of ancient seas known to capsize the vessels of those who dare approach it, is a fitting guardian for the borders of Kusari. Heavily updated and refined from the lessons learned during the war with Bretonia, this agile bomber has been honed with the lessons of a hundred battles to deliver the fist of the Emperor on any and all fields.
Stats
Gun/Turrets Mounts: 4/1
Armor: 16400
Cargo Space: 90
Max Batteries/NanoBots: 85/85
Optimal Weapon Class: 9
Max. Weapon Class: 10
Additional Equipment: M, CM, 2xCD/T
Extra-Stats
Mass: 250
Steering: 85000 85000 83000
Angular: 80000 80000 80000
Rotation: 20000 20000 20000
Nudge-Force: 30000
Strafe-Force/-Powerusage: 20000/2
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Kubotan - 03-09-2009
The difference between these two quoted bombers are minimal.
Kusari Bomber has 400 more armor than the Blood Dragon bomber.
Amount of weapons and bots are exactly the same.
--
Blood Dragon Bomber - Steering: 85500 85500 82500
Kusari Bomber - Steering: 85000 85000 83000
Difference: 500
Again, minimal difference. But I'm not sure that you meant I should compare these two bombers with each other.
Compared to FA and GC bomber: Same firepower that argument of yours is not correct.
True both FA and GC bomber has a bit lower armor.
Bots/Bats difference for all four bombers is +-5 , hardly anything.
Turn rate for the four different bombers is +-1000, don't know if that is significant or not, but dosen't feel like that.
Turrets of FA bomber fires forward, no need to further argument that. Turrets generally are less effective in terms of damage compared to normal guns but usually gets a bonus in speed and range. But in case of the FA bomber who uses the weapon line "Vulture" has exactly the same stats as for guns and turrets:
Quote: Vulture 5
Refire-Rate: 0,33 = 3,03 Shots per second
Power-Usage: 160,00
Projectile-Speed: 600
Needed Hardpoint: hp_gun_special_9
LifeTime: 0,92 = 550 Range
Hull-Damage: 211,20 = 640 per second
Shield-Damage: 105,60 = 320 per second
Quote: Vulture 5 Turret
Refire-Rate: 0,33 = 3,03 Shots per second
Power-Usage: 160,00
Projectile-Speed: 600
Needed Hardpoint: hp_turret_special_5
LifeTime: 0,92 = 550 Range
Hull-Damage: 211,20 = 640 per second
Shield-Damage: 105,60 = 320 per second
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All ship size issues can't be debated without pictures of the four bombers standing next to each other or something similar to that. Simply stating your opinion that the GC bomber is bigger than say Kusari Bomber is not a valid argument, too subjective.
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In conclusion: Almost everything except armor versus agility is needed for debate. The remaining issues are not exactly issues, just minimal differences. Also remember that Discovery is about variety and you can't aim to have everything exactly the same. There will always come a point where one party exploits its advantages to fully maximize their success in battle, this is called "adapting to your environment" or in this case, adapting to what toys you are given.
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GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - mjolnir - 03-09-2009
See my post #6 in this thread: http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=400674
for complete explanation of all the 9 numbers and their relations.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Dusty Lens - 03-10-2009
Never go by the fiction infocards.
Trust me.
GC "Orchid" Bomber/FA "Mamoru" Bomber - Zelot - 03-10-2009
I am very happy with the FA bomber and took out a BAF in a VHF already. Was a good fight. The turning on the FA bomber is a bit deceptive, as it turns faster up and down than side to side.