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+---- Thread: AI Stem Guns proposal (/showthread.php?tid=17699)
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AI Stem Guns proposal - Primus Avatar - 03-12-2009
After a constructive discussion with Jinx about making
the Artificial Intelligence Core Vessel (Marsflyer) a unique type of bomber,
we've come to a few conclusions:
-any balance we get must be done with the existing gun/turret hardpoints.
No adding torps, removing or adding guns.
-Right now, its only a very powerful VHF. Armored transport ships
and liners will eat it in 1v1 combat (most of the time)
-It should remain unique. As it currently fires thick refire 10 and refire 8
guns.
Yes, its deadly against VHFs and bombers, but I would like to propose
that we change that slightly. I mentioned on another thread that harvesters
no longer have in-RP solo-piracy ships. Even thou i mention harvesters i mostly
speak for myself so AFTER you read this ill need your vote.
I would want this ship's guns changed in the following way:
-increased range
-decreased projectile speed
-increased energy requirements
-increased damage
-same refire rate
It should make it a lot less effective in VHF combat and give it the extra edge it requires against
transports and capital ships.
Lets move on to the statistics:
Top bomber pilots use SNAC. In 4.85 it has become most certainly their primary weapon.
SNAC:
Hull damage: 132,000
Shield damage: 66,000
refire: 0.17
projectile speed: 280
energy cost: 38,000
~This information might be outdated
Now considering the stats, we find that professional bomber pilots fire their SNAC
every time it reloads. Until then they use their available guns, mines or dodge capital
ship fire, only to compensate for the time lost while waiting for the refire cooldown.
In theory a Bomber pilot does SNAC damage per second in the following amounts:
Hull-damage per second: 132,000max * 0.17refire = 22,440
Shield-damage per second: 66,000max * 0.17refire = 11,220
Energy cost per second: 38,000 * 0.17refire = 6460
I did this only to show you how i calculate this things and to point out the underlined
statistics. The idea I'm proposing for this unique ship is to make ALL the existing guns
simmilar 1 SNAC. But before passing judgment on this please read further.
The current damage output of the AI Sten guns is:
Damage per sec: 14,160 (hull)
Damage per sec: 7076 (shield)
Energy drain per sec: 5100
Yes, its big. But not as nearly as one would want from a bomber. And
what does the bomber need most when fighting capital ships?
Fire range! unfortunately the current range is 696 for all AI Sten Guns.
And what does a VHF need when fighting other fighters/bombers?
Projectile speed! And its currently set to 600 for all AI Sten guns.
So my proposal is the following:
Make the new range bigger by ~172.4% = 1200.
Decrease the projectile speed so that the old one is ~172.4% bigger than the new one = 350
Seeing that the SNAC has 280 projectile speed but is harder to see and has automatic
guidance, it is still somewhat better. So lets balance the damage/energy cost to bring it
closer to becoming alternative bomber weapons.
Proposal:
at least 20,000 hull damage per second as opposed to the SNAC=22,440.
at least 10,000 shield damage per second as opposed to the SNAC=11,220.
The Artificial Intelligence Core Vessel (Marsflyer) has slightly lower energy capacity
but also slightly faster regeneration. So according to most bomber requirements
the energy consumption per second should be increased slightly
from the current 5,100r/s to 6500. (SNAC=6460).
Why do I think this would balance things out? A SNAC has the advantage of longer range
bombardment but the new guns would offer better projectile speed. They would lack guidance,
but its less important when shooting at less than 1200 range.
Now, this is a basic proposal. Basically it becomes a lot less efficient against fighters and VHF
and we get a unique bomber capable of taking down all the things regular bombers do.
Your vote please.
P.S. if you haven't flied it or haven't seen it in combat please choose your words carefully and post something constructive.
AI Stem Guns proposal - me_b_kevin - 03-12-2009
the only concern i have with this is that, to my understanding, The AI's only have the two ships (mars and cruiser) turning the SHF into a "bomber" makes both ships effectively into anti-cap ships right....or am i wrong?
what defense will you have against fighters? the way i saw it before is that the cruiser was the anti-cap and the SHF was the anti-fighter.
i'm likely missing something but that is how i understood it.
AI Stem Guns proposal - cmfalconer - 03-12-2009
The problem I see here is refire. A SNAC can only fire once ever seven seconds. While your guns do a less damage per shot, you don't have to wait seven seconds for another crack at it.
Even if you hit 1/2 the time, that's about 10k damage, which is less than the 14k you currently do (if i follow the math correctly).
Also, SNAC are dumb-fire if i recall correctly, same as the AI stemguns.
AI Stem Guns proposal - Boss - 03-12-2009
I believe the confusion over the SNAC came from the fact that they now explode on a hit.
They don't track. I've flown the new Marsy, and I like what I've seen, but the stem guns and the turrets don't match up. Reducing the speed just compounds the problem.
I'd say buff the shield damage on the stem guns and use the turrets for hull damage.
AI Stem Guns proposal - Primus Avatar - 03-12-2009
' Wrote:The problem I see here is refire. A SNAC can only fire once ever seven seconds. While your guns do a less damage per shot, you don't have to wait seven seconds for another crack at it.
Even if you hit 1/2 the time, that's about 10k damage, which is less than the 14k you currently do (if i follow the math correctly).
Also, SNAC are dumb-fire if i recall correctly, same as the AI stemguns.
bomber pilots don't idly wait until they get another shot, they use remaining guns if they can.
besides, all a bomber has to do is evade until he gets a clear shot. Its a lot easier to just shoot once
and deal 160,000 damage than having to do it bit by bit with regular guns exposing yourself to
enemy turrets.
i watched carefully that it has about the same number of pros and cons.
just requires a different flight strategy.
@Boss:
I'm not sure buffing the VHF will make everyone happy. Try and help me find balance.
@Dreygon: the cruiser is well capable of anti fighter
AI Stem Guns proposal - Boss - 03-12-2009
' Wrote:@Boss:
I'm not sure buffing the VHF will make everyone happy. Try and help me find balance.
@Dreygon: the cruiser is well capable of anti fighter
Mm...Perhaps reduce the refire on the stem guns to compensate then.
Regarding the cruiser: Figuring out where to mount guns is a royal pain. I created one on my server and placed one LM, 4 BRs, 2 Pulses, and the rest cerbs.
It had no trouble shredding things. Did run outta ammo pretty fast though.
/ramble
AI Stem Guns proposal - me_b_kevin - 03-12-2009
' Wrote:@Dreygon: the cruiser is well capable of anti fighter
just don't want you backing yourself into a corner is all
AI Stem Guns proposal - Eternal - 03-12-2009
These ships are not bombers for a reason. In my understanding , they are ment to guard the Harvesters (Cruisers) while they harvest matterial from bombers , not be bombers themselves. Also , like I said before you can pirate in them , it's may not be very easy but I'm sure it is manageble.
AI Stem Guns proposal - Primus Avatar - 03-12-2009
' Wrote:These ships are not bombers for a reason. In my understanding , they are ment to guard the Harvesters (Cruisers) while they harvest matterial from bombers , not be bombers themselves. Also , like I said before you can pirate in them , it's may not be very easy but I'm sure it is manageble.
i understand that very well, and you're absolutely right. But personally i don't feel like driving a cruiser every time i try to harvest someone bigger. (you know how everybody feels about it)
While we had the Lunchbox i used to harvest battlecruisers with it. Now i must admit I'm looking for
a smaller substitute. I'm not saying that that i want a vessel capable of solo-ing cruisers but making piracy
a bit easier would do great.
AI Stem Guns proposal - mjolnir - 03-12-2009
We'll think about it and try to test it properly.
Range over some 900 is extremely unrealistic though, ship like that would be impossible even for Cruiser, GBs, and BS to defend from.
some 800-850 and much high energy consumption might be possible yes.