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+---- Thread: Faction Warned: =CR= (/showthread.php?tid=193767)
Faction Warned: =CR= - St.Denis - 07-17-2022
=CR= has been warned for:
Consequences:
Quote:2.6 - Every character must have only one type of ID equipped and must play according to the role and restrictions of that ID. Additional restrictions may be highlighted in red on ship, commodity, and equipment infocards. If ID restrictions and allowances conflict with the server rules, the ID overrides the rules (except 2.8 and 3.4).
Consequences:
Just because the Indies break the Rules, doesn't mean that you can then 'defend' them.
If you require evidence, you may request such via PM from a Staff member. Only the accused or an official faction leader of the accused person's faction may request such. Once you have the evidence, and if you wish to dispute it, you may post in the Sanction Thread below. Do not continue PM'ing a staff member, as that will result in your Appeal being denied. If you PM a staff or post in the sanction thread and you are not directly involved, you are consenting to be subjected to the reprisal of my choice which may involve in game repercussions up to a ban. Blaming members of your immediate family, neighbors, friends, pets, and assorted Orcs, Trolls and any other legendary creatures may result in the use of GM Right #CTE 750AE
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Spectre - 07-17-2022
Faction 2ic and one of the ships involved here.
Mind shooting me some evidence?
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Anguirus - 07-17-2022
Faction 1ic and one of the ships in the group but not at the event.
I would also like to receive the evidence
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - St.Denis - 07-17-2022
Evidence sent
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Spectre - 07-17-2022
From the evidence provided, I fail to see how =CR= was anything but justified here. Even one of our indies, Horo_Kenrou, had yet to engage when he was shot at by the player who submitted the evidence. The other indie, Nyx.7242, seems fully justified in the sanction, but everyone else was simply attacking in self-defense, even if Horo dropped pre-emptive RP. Bear in mind, everyone else was also dropping pre-emptive RP, and yet things only got uppity once =CR= started firing.
I'm honestly not sure how this was enough to warn the faction and sanction Horo_Kenrou.
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Karlotta - 07-17-2022
Because of previous incidents with the sanction-lancer(s) involved, I took 2 videos of the encounter. Unfortunately I didnt have time to set up OBS in mid flight when they arrived, so unfortunately the quality is FRAPs level crap.
For full context it should be pointed out that the AI and Aux ships were the ones who came to gamma to disturb a meeting between Corsairs and =CR= that was already taking place. From the moment they showed up we suspected they would be baiting us into rule violations, and there were lengthy discussions in group chat on how to avoid it.
Video of AI doing close fly-bys' of a fleet it knows is hostile to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsI3G4ixjSg
Video and logs of AI+Aux group dropping engagement lines of "hostiles" without specifying if they mean Corsairs or Crayter or both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwssxazw3sI
[02.07.2022 19:47:04] Hello.World!: Directive 55567 enabled.
[02.07.2022 19:47:26] Phi-34: ::<harvest> [time] = [#] 10 [seconds] - {transfer} [energy] -> [emitters] = "true"::
[02.07.2022 19:47:36] Hello.World!: Emitters 'on'.
[02.07.2022 19:47:38] A/)-AXI-B-9192: Preparing for sterilization methods.
[02.07.2022 19:47:40] Hello.World!: Discharge.
[02.07.2022 19:47:48] A/)-AXI-B-9192: Discharging.
[02.07.2022 19:47:53] Firewall: FOLLOWING ALLY DIRECTIVE
[02.07.2022 19:48:00] Firewall: ELIMINATING HOSTILES.
These lines could have been engagement notices against CR as well, but we waited to see what happened anyway, before shooting. Then this happened:
[02.07.2022 19:49:27] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: Nyx, did they fire on you?
[02.07.2022 19:49:36] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: they're firing on him
[02.07.2022 19:49:37] =CR=FV-Tyche|482 has set Nyx.7242 as group target.
[02.07.2022 19:49:37] =CR=N-205-Mercury: B: Crayterian units, remember our Rules of Engagement.
[02.07.2022 19:49:37] CRMS-Agamemnon: I saw them take shots at Nyx
[02.07.2022 19:49:40] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: defend
[02.07.2022 19:49:51] =CR=Zulu=: are you sure?
[02.07.2022 19:49:53] Horo_Kenrou: H: Defending ships!
[02.07.2022 19:50:00] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: G: They're firing on our man.
[02.07.2022 19:50:07] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: G: All turrets, lock and load.
The second video also spans over the time the alleged violation took place.
Things happen fast and are blurry, so I made a slowed down commented version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoN3lf3mY-4
There are 2 moments Nyx could have gotten shot at before he returned fire, the second is more likely than the first.
This is what they said after the fight:
[02.07.2022 19:56:22] Nyx.7242: My shields got chunked, I panicked and engaged. All I can say.
[02.07.2022 19:57:57] Nyx.7242: I took hits, panicked and engaged. If I took hits from a friendly, then I may have done.
[02.07.2022 19:57:58] Horo_Kenrou: yep
[02.07.2022 19:58:02] Horo_Kenrou: nyx too
[02.07.2022 19:58:08] Nyx.7242: From my perspective, I was engaged.
02.07.2022 19:58:11] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: they fired at Nyx for being too close
[02.07.2022 19:58:26] CRMS-Agamemnon: Well, thats certainly an excuse.
[02.07.2022 19:58:30] =CR=Zulu=: so they intentionally fired at him?
[02.07.2022 19:58:35] Horo_Kenrou: I write it to defend nyx, but before it, they shoot at me, the phi
[02.07.2022 19:58:40] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: I saw him get lit up
[02.07.2022 20:04:05] =CR=Zulu=: Did they shoot you intentionally or possibly by mistake, Nyxx?
[02.07.2022 20:04:14] Nyx.7242: Dude, I have no idea.
[02.07.2022 20:04:21] =CR=FV-Tyche|482: they probably did it by mistake, but they shot Horo intentionally
[02.07.2022 20:04:28] Nyx.7242: Might've been by mistake. As I said, I was hit and I reacted instantly.
I think the evidence in the second slowed down commented video already shows without a doubt that every =CR= had good reasons to believe we were being engaged, with no evidence to the contrary visible to us at the time.
I just saw the evidence submitted by the Auxesian bomber, and I believe the video actually shows Nyx getting hit, although it looks... weird.
Hold on while I process that video.
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Karlotta - 07-17-2022
I slowed down and commented on 3 relevant parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfrwUzYEwYU
The fact that there is a sort of flash on Nyx without visible projectile hitting him is strange and maybe a bug similar to the one with battleship mortars, but it does match with Tyche's statement of "I saw him get lit up". You'll have to ask him what exactly he saw and when. (EDIT: the flash could have been Nyx firing his thruster too, I guess it can be tested if thats what it looks like)
Also, Horo was shot by Aux before he shot at them. There was one engagement line from him, but before that there were 8 from the ai/aux group which could have included us. All this made it look as if they simply switched target to the closest CR snub(s) after killing the Corsair Asesino.
I guess you don't care about the attitude the person who reports has in the audio in the video, or the fact that they reported even though we ended up disengaging when they complained. That already speaks volumes.
EDIT: After listening carefully to what is being said in the evidence you provided, I noticed that the person who reported is practically confessing to baiting us:
2:55 "I effing knew this would happen."
4:25 "I am recording as I am fully intending to report this."
4:40 "Yeah I told you they were gonna do that."
This is being said under the context that AI+Aux were the ones who came to gamma after they saw =CR= there, they started flying around us, they dropped ambiguous engagement lines, and they shot the corsairs we had friendly RP with, while they were near us, knowing that we couldnt engage unless a CR ship was being attacked.
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Anguirus - 07-22-2022
After some time, discussions, and multiple reviews of the evidence. It is time I threw my hat in. Though we tried to take every step to prevent something like this from happening, some things are unavoidable. Space is pretty wild.
The video evidence that best help show how the whole situation went down is very helpful and appreciated. It does not show, unfortunately, the beginning of the engagement between CRindie1 and an AI indie. Evidence shows CRindie1 not dropping lines or whether or not he shot first or was shot first(in another post of this thread showing another third indie vouching that he was shot at). With CRindie2 not knowing a possible rule break had happened only noticed the fight had started and moved to defend CRindie1. Being lit up in the process by guncam operator with out CRindie2 firing a shot, thus engaging him first and bringing CRindie2 into the fight. Official =CR= members had issued a multitude of warnings to follow the engagement rules of our ID, thus we had confidence that all rules were being followed at the time(due to my own stupidity my DSAce files got wiped when I tried to download vanilla FL to try SP, a count of warnings can be provided by another member present if approved to provide such evidence). Thus Rule 2.8 was enacted to defend members of Crayter affiliation. Even in evidence given, it shows a warning from OF to follow such rule. The engagement plays out as one would after. End of the scenario.
I would also like to point out the HARD accusation of =CR= sending indies to start fights and drag us in, or the overall endorsing of rule breaking. I would not lead, or even be apart of, a faction if the members did such things under my leadership.
In conclusion all =CR= members present followed all rules and protocols and is not at fault of any rule break. I move to have the warning overturned.
RE: Faction Warned: =CR= - Karst - 07-23-2022
So, we've read all of your posts and PMs, we've rewatched the videos and gone through the logs again.
There is ultimately no clear evidence of the indies being engaged first by anyone present, and definite evidence of them attacking the AI-Aux side. It's not surprising that the circumstances of the beginning of the engagement are unclear, that tends to happen when a fourth party is sitting in the middle of a fight between three other parties. For all we know they could have been hit by friendly fire.
However the fight started or who was allegedly baiting whom, the overall result is a situation in which CR, indies and officials alike, joined a fight on the Corsair side on an ID that can't assist allies outside of ZOI. You shouldn't have joined that engagement, and you wisely did end up pulling out.
It's just a warning, what you did is hardly the world's worst offense, but it's something that shouldn't be done. The warning stands.