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+--- Thread: Deleting systems poll UPDATE (/showthread.php?tid=196649)
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Chronicron - 04-02-2023
@Markam I'd call you out on your bullshit mentality of "fewer systems = more interaction", but you're literally the last person to listen to anyone, so why should I or anybody in this community even bother?
stop pretending like you care about what we have to say. you don't. everybody can see that.
at this point, you could just delete all non-vanilla systems and call it a day. that would surely inspire people to interact more often, wouldn't it?
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Shimamori - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 10:39 AM)Markam Wrote: I had questioned whether I should respond to this thread, as the thread has questionable motivations and abuses the trust placed in certain community members by leaking upcoming changes to the mod.
Before commenting on the veracity of the leak, what is more important is understanding how presenting the information in a partial, incomplete and inaccurate manner as the OP has is harmful for understanding the context of the changes and with what they accompany in the end product (the patch). At best the information is incomplete, at worst it is misleading and misrepresents what is being done.
I.e. by noting that there isn't a Bretonia system in the leaked list of no longer existing system list was either intentional to represent the information in a certain light, or shows how poorly the changes were understood. To note, Bretonia is not somehow exempt from what is being done and when the patch is actually in a presentable form and released this will be clear to see.
As for the veracity of the information being presented;
While I will not comment on particular systems within the list, it is true that Systems are being deleted next patch.
So yes there is truth to the list, but as stated above, it is all presented with no context, and speaks little to the improvements being made to other systems, as well as hides the fact that both deleted and remaining systems are to be utilized in different ways that do not disrupt the core Story/gameplay environment.
Also, for those that assume Discovery is on a downward trajectory towards fewer and fewer Systems, as if to say that Systems count is synonymous with content quantity, I can only say that with this next patch we will have handled the majority of reductions, and Systems development can finally focus on adding (hopefully) high quality systems in a non-disruptive manner that better plays to the Discovery title we have for the mod.
It must be said that the weight of years of Systems development added a great deal of complexity to the Story/gameplay environment (one that is impossible to give justice to), and in many cases Systems are barely recognizable from one another, creating a sense of sameness that helps no one feel attached to the world, and in other cases Systems served as pixel dumps, or outright broke fundamental lore by existing.
System removals have become a staple of my tenure as Systems lead, and it has been a slow grind of a System here or there being removed or merged, which has created an atmosphere of a slow death of the mod for some, the development team has taken the last year of development to turn a slow roast into a fast sear, allowing us to start new and on a positive trajectory for once.
Despite my Dr. Evil signature, I am not unapproachable and will happy engage with anyone who wants to talk about a given system or just in general. Just bear in mind I work full time and live in Japan, so response times can vary.
Originally, I wanted to stay out of this but this passage really caught my attention:
"Also, for those that assume Discovery is on a downward trajectory towards fewer and fewer Systems, as if to say that Systems count is synonymous with content quantity, I can only say that with this next patch we will have handled the majority of reductions, and Systems development can finally focus on adding (hopefully) high quality systems in a non-disruptive manner that better plays to the Discovery title we have for the mod. "
It's really a very poor PR move. What it conveys is that the team admits that the old systems are of poor quality despite numerous people trying their best to improve them, and that the team does not want, or more likely cannot fix them so it has to focus on these new allegedly high-quality systems. You talk of a less disruptive manner of handling things yet think for yourself, what would be less disruptive:
- a) bringing new content or otherwise reworking existing systems with established lore & story to bring them to these high-quality standards you are referring to; or
- b) removing old systems resulting in retconning of existing stuff that will inevitably lead to inconsistencies in the narrative & create headaches for the story devs so that you can create new systems that might or might not take flight and become popular.
A few examples of the systems on the list to be cut if we assume the leaks are correct:
- Sigma-21. Yeah, the system is rather empty and bland. Can it be reworked? Sure. Maybe, a battlezone for the OC/GMG/KuLawfuls/Hogosha/You name it? Perhaps. Removing it, however, and moving Saigon to, say, Sigma 15 alters the whole narrative regarding the Rheinland-Kusari war for the said system. Now it appears that the planet that Kusari fought for and kind of protected its claims together with the GMG is... in Rheinland space. Moreover, it would make no sense whatsoever now to say that Rheinland attacked in that war because the planet was in its space all along. Narrative inconsistency? Narrative inconsistency.
- Tau-53. The system actually has the potential to be a hub for the Gallic-Kusari unlawfuls now that Ku Lawfuls retreated. Tensions between the Maquis and GC? Perhaps. Or perhaps something else. Your story team has always been ripe with ingenuous ideas, they can figure something out. If you remove the system, however, the result of the most recent Ku-Ga war, however weird that conflict was in the first place, would be null and void. If Lorraine is removed in addition to that - even more so. Surely, you can try to pull out a card that the systems got abandoned and removed, but is it really the case the story wants to push when systems like Ontario and Kepler, having been devastated by natural phenomena far worse than the scourge of war that damaged only the infrastructure and not the fabric of reality, keep existing.
It looks like a really poor excuse of either inaptitude or idk even what, especially since you clearly see that the community predominantly is against it so I also cannot fathom who is the target audience of these changes and patch in general. I second @Prysin in his post above that you still remain a part of the community. Ostracising yourself like that will not do good either for you or other community members. IMHO, you should really reconsider the whole approach to the development because all the changes I've heard of looked really patchy without a general overarching vision of where the devs want the mod to go. Forced interactions by means of scaling everything down? Have you considered that forced interactions are usually not fun and players tend to flock to points of interest, whether those are atmospheric systems like old O-Delta, or some activity hub like mission farming in O Xi or battlezone in Munich? It would be too ungrounded to state, but it looks like you don't like those kind of activities and try to divert the players into activities that you think should be the priority by deleting the said systems.
If you truly care about the well-being of the mod you must have noticed the alarming trends: non-trading OFs are getting fewer and people generally do not care about those anymore. The RP activity of the forum has decreased. The interest to everything on the server is gradually decreasing. You should not be angry at all these rants - they mean that people still care, at least. The opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy. And at this rate there soon will be no players to savour your patches.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - DocPepper - 04-02-2023
I am not a terribly active Disco player (as evidenced by my one post on these forums from the last time I attempted to get into the game), but Discovery is something I've poked my head in on I've poked my head in on every few years since around the time of 4.85. While I've always been interested in the story of the mod, I don't have the personal investment others here might, and I don't know the history of the developers nearly well enough to truly have any form of personal opinions on them or their work to this date.
However, over the years, what's generally kept me playing when I've checked in on the mod was the ability to have some fun exploring new systems I've never seen before, trying to track down new stations and wrecks and generally just having fun stumbling into new locations and things I'd never seen before. This latest go, that's taken the form of cruising around the sector trying to get information on every single station that I can to reveal as many potential trade routes as I can. It was a bit disheartening, and a little bit frustrating, when I stumbled across this thread a few days ago almost immediately after having fully explored several of the systems on that list. It suddenly feels like I've completely wasted several hours of my week, and I fear that with fewer systems, the mod will hold my attention for less time in the future.
I also definitely agree here that it is highly unlikely that fewer systems means more interactions. I've had a couple rp interactions this time, but the vast majority of people I encounter say nothing and continue on their way as I continue on mine. Fewer systems would not change that, it'll just make those occurrences more frequent.
I don't expect my thoughts here to be given as much weight as others as an inactive player, but I wanted to give my own two cents on the idea of system removal.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Couden - 04-02-2023
Make more systems.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - LuckyOne - 04-02-2023
While one could have the appreciation for the developers trying to get some semblance of quality in many of the former "Guard" systems, there could also be an argument that making the game world smaller and removing things that (former) members of the community strived for and often spent numerous amounts of resources, including the most valuable one, their own time, will lead to alienating many active people and demotivating them from further efforts. All this is simply not good for the long term longevity of the game.
By all means, rework what is needed to be reworked, make the systems backwater like Baffin or put some powerful NPCs in it like O-Major and O-Psi to make them have a different purpose.
But if you really want to increase player-to-player interactions you need to take a backstep and look at the big picture. It's not only systems design or even the number of systems that increase the likelyhood of player-to-player interactions, though those certainly help when the systems have more chokepoints or a clear purpose and known activity the players could use a system for.
The other side of the coin is the gameplay mechanics, namely the ways it's possible to intercept and find other ships, besides just looking at the player list. My honest opinion is that further buffing of cruise speeds for some ships, like interceptors, while slowing down others (such as heavy transports), increasing overall scanner ranges and reworking all scanners for more variety, having more ways to generate co-op activities (co-op trading, smuggling), giving unlawfuls some form of access to TLAGSNET could all lead to increased friendly and unfriendly interactions between people regardless of the system design. And also fix the damn Docking Modules, didn't Darkwind already submit a patch for them that's waiting years to be reviewed and pushed to the live game ?
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Emperor Tekagi - 04-02-2023
I like how everyone is basically pretending the patch is only deleting stuff and not adding stuff too. Kinda hilarious to watch ngl
Edit: Legit why this leak is utterly useless as it focuses on a singular aspect, handpicked to create a warped picture. There is a lot of cool stuff coming + it's a dev branch, this thing gets changes every week. Chopping block systems means these are systems potentially gone or receive major work.
Some are pretty much confirmed gone like Munich or Tau-53, as their abandonment was long teased before through story.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Erremnart - 04-02-2023
New systems will be added once we have this patch finally done, as Markam pointed out. Hopefully, these systems will be added in a way that they won't need any major connection/system reshuffle so any possible narrative can be preserved for as long as possible. That's the main idea behind all this major connection and system rework.
The staff does not want Sirius in a shape of vanilla + Gallia, don't worry. I'm sure I don't want it too. We want to make Sirius interesting.
The staff does not want Sirius in a shape of vanilla + Gallia, don't worry. I'm sure I don't want it too. We want to make Sirius interesting.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - DocPepper - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 10:32 PM)Emperor Tekagi Wrote: I like how everyone is basically pretending the patch is only deleting stuff and not adding stuff too. Kinda hilarious to watch nglHonestly I think this is just further evidence for the argument being made about transparency.
Write some dev diaries from time to time. Tease some stuff in the works that's ready to be shown off. Take control of the narrative and try to build some hype.
If the removed systems are either simply being removed or are going to be replaced with something new and better as opposed to being condensed down and merged with other systems, then that'd be great. I'd love to see some of that.
Edit: And from the post that appeared while I was writing this up, that does sound like the case. I do look forward to exploring the new systems.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Megaera - 04-02-2023
I didn't even know Markam still existed... Last time I heard about him was maybe a year ago.
Also about the DWG shutdown being because of lobbying, this still happens, but now no longer in the open. Now it is just staff who all gather together in closed off discords and discord DMs. I know there is like 20 playtesters who got randomly picked. Well not randomly, because I was told "You and others are not part of that group exactly because of that attitude of yours"
This was after a very valid critical note of mine. Anyway,
DWG was a good way to have input from various sources. It had a sort of corrective function when staff did stupid things. Now everyone has to just wait what staff throws at us this time. And even with community backlash, they wont revert stuff, because they tend to see themselves as somehow better than the average players. And in my honest opinion: When staff starts to get this narcissistic notion that they are above the community, they won't be able to create something that 'the average player' will enjoy, as they have lost touch with said community.
RE: Deleting systems poll UPDATE - Saronsen - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 10:39 AM)Markam Wrote: I had questioned whether I should respond to this thread, as the thread has questionable motivations and abuses the trust placed in certain community members by leaking upcoming changes to the mod.you can see my exact motivations in the original post (EDIT: PAGE 2) as i didnt cut out my request to you, which means everyone was able to see i originally wanted to keep the assets (or at least LSF assets) from virginia, so please dont strawman me. if you want to claim im being malicious towards the community, at least make sure i didnt make my intentions fucking public.
Quote:Before commenting on the veracity of the leak, what is more important is understanding how presenting the information in a partial, incomplete and inaccurate manner as the OP has is harmful for understanding the context of the changes and with what they accompany in the end product (the patch). At best the information is incomplete, at worst it is misleading and misrepresents what is being done.there wouldnt have to be incomplete or inaccurate information if the dev team wasnt so secretive. there wouldnt have to be a need for this thread if you interacted with the community at large at all and the "moderation team" didnt ban "problem" members with opinions from the discord
Quote:I.e. by noting that there isn't a Bretonia system in the leaked list of no longer existing system list was either intentional to represent the information in a certain light, or shows how poorly the changes were understood. To note, Bretonia is not somehow exempt from what is being done and when the patch is actually in a presentable form and released this will be clear to see.dont act like devtonia hasnt been the reoccuring and unsurprising butt of every joke because they get shocking recoveries, victories, and growths every patch
Quote:blahblahas stated above, there cannot be context because no one on the development team wants to reveal anything. and getting a change reverted after it's patched is more painful than an amputation with no anesthetic
So yes there is truth to the list, but as stated above, it is all presented with no context, and speaks little to the improvements being made to other systems, as well as hides the fact that both deleted and remaining systems are to be utilized in different ways that do not disrupt the core Story/gameplay environment.
Quote:Also, for those that assume Discovery is on a downward trajectory towards fewer and fewer Systems, as if to say that Systems count is synonymous with content quantity, I can only say that with this next patch we will have handled the majority of reductions, and Systems development can finally focus on adding (hopefully) high quality systems in a non-disruptive manner that better plays to the Discovery title we have for the mod.so youre removing systems so you can add more systems? why not just change existing systems to be your "higher quality"?
Quote:System removals have become a staple of my tenure as Systems lead, and it has been a slow grind of a System here or there being removed or merged, which has created an atmosphere of a slow death of the mod for some,judging by the voter turnout, i'd say, oh, 60% of the current forum-going playerbase seems to have noticed this, and disagrees with the removal of systems.
ill now proceed to go read the other replies since you made this post
EDIT:
(03-27-2023, 04:46 AM)Saronsen Wrote: i also like how lead devs make it pretty clear they have zero interest with the plebeians of the server too
sorry i didnt make this in the OP its on page 2, let me go fix it