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+--- Thread: In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy (/showthread.php?tid=19937)
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - DeathsOverture - 04-30-2009
This post is in response to this thread: http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37240
I just want to make sure that, Out of Roleplay, people understand the Gas Miner's Guild. Some things should probably be common knowlege.
Okinawa as the throne sees it:
Exibit A:
' Wrote:Guild master, I suggest you find you tone. I dont think I like the way you have gone about this. First off, any claim that the GMG have any kind of Sovereignty of any part of Honshu is absurd, and talk like that will find GMG forces removed from that system. There is only one sovereignty in any part of Kusari, and it is for sure not the GMG.
Exibit B:
' Wrote:Gentlemen, I must concur with Shogun Sulu's comments. Okinawa is part of Kusari, and the KNF will patrol all Kusari territory as it sees fit.
@A
![[Image: screen11-1.jpg]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/thenoseyshadow/screen11-1.jpg)
Let's talk about Aomori's Infocard. First of all, it is a "major outpost of the GMG in Kusari space." I can't support Prowler when Raikoke claimed the surrounding area, but the station itself is considered GMG-sovereign. The fact that Aomori is an outpost confirms that the GMG has its own space; Sigma-13, Sigma-19, and Okinawa.
@B
' Wrote:<snip>
And one of the special parts about Hogosha having a base in Okinawa was that they could openly pirate people they wish to. Since Kusari doesn't have sovereignty in the system, Hogosha have none of the legal consequences of getting caught pirating. They'd have to deal with GC, BD, GMG, or Kishiro if they are doing it, but KNF and KSP wouldn't be involved, and may even encourage it to happen. In fact, they are already openly attacking the DSE's jump gate project in order to slow its construction.
This ties into other posts as well; Kishiro's rise has not been very quick. Its been going on for years, and if you read the infocards and news reports, you'd find they've been building in Okinawa for over a decade. Furthermore, Kishiro is -not- in control of the system. GMG is. Kishiro isn't as powerful as has been insinuated here. They are the smaller of the two partners developing in the system. And Miura is NOT habitable. Thats why its a terraforming project. Its a mining planet, nothing more. If the Plutonium mines were to dry up, no colonies would be left there.. There is nothing there to do except the mining.
On top of that, Kishiro and GMG have had to work closely with IC in order to pay for all of this, and in return, they both owe the IC quite a bit of money. Its mostly being paid off through two things; Trading concessions and allowing them to have a base above Miura. IC are able to control a lot of the trade going into or out of Okinawa because GMG allows them to govern most of it. It lets them rake in a lot of money. Because the system is not controlled by the Kusari government, the IC don't have to operate under their restrictions. Plus, IC have been trying to expand, and expanding in Kusari is very hard because of their views on foreigners. To IC, this was a perfect opportunity and they took advantage of it.
However, while its not a godly leap in advancing Kishiro, it is a large step, especially in gaining Kishiro industrial power to compete with Samura. Because of that, Hogosha is getting more bold, encouraged by Samura, to hinder any and all Kishiro operations they can. Okinawa is perfect for that, because it is outside the eyes of the government. This is why Hogosha have been more open about their operations against Kishiro and GMG.
And your idea of trying to stop as much trade in Okinawa is the idea of the system. Basically its a warzone with three sides. Kishiro and GMG are trying to build up their mining operations as quickly and efficiently as possible. GC and BD are trying to keep any Samura, KNF, KSP, FA, and Hogosha from coming into the system, pirating, or disrupting the building. It puts GC and BD on the opposite side than they usually are. Acting more like vigilantes than pirates. In Okinawa you have the GC/BD and Hog/FA sides reversed. While FA and Hogosha are semi-legit in Kusari, they are pirates in Okinawa, while GC and BD are pirates in Kusari, but semi-legit in Okinawa.
<snip>
And about the sovereignty issue; GMG were the first lawfuls to discover the system and were fully able to build a station and claim it before anyone else found it. This situation is completely different from Orkney. Orkney was claimed by BAF, who found it, before anyone had a base or claim there. Okinawa was found and settled by GMG before KNF found out about it, and thats why they were able to get sovereignty. But its not an easy thing to hold on to. Kusari is obviously going to do everything it can to get control, from economic pressures on GMG, political pressure, or even ultimatums. That is to be played out by the players, not the NPCs, because I want players to have a say in how systems progress.
<snip>
On GMG being a house; I'd say no, thats not exactly correct. Sovereignty of one system doesn't make you a house. GMG is a corporation. It has no government, and is ran by its board. Its very powerful for a corporation. More of a megacorporation, but no house.
<snip>
In case you don't know, Dab created the system.
After a long discussion participants concluded that the GMG compares to the East India Trading company. ProwlerPC posted a plethora of in-game evidence: http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?sh...31361&st=33
So let's all just keep this in mind while we play this out. I don't think the GMG intentions are to keep the KNF restricted from GMG space; rather they fiercely defend their autonomy.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Hawkwings - 04-30-2009
Just like to note that I think Aomori is "sovereign GMG territory" just like the US Embassy in China is "sovereign US territory".
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - DeathsOverture - 04-30-2009
' Wrote:Just like to note that I think Aomori is "sovereign GMG territory" just like the US Embassy in China is "sovereign US territory".
I will agree with you there. This thread's main purpose is to confirm that Okinawa is GMG space and GMG is autonomous.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Hawkwings - 04-30-2009
My view is that Kusari lets the GMG keep to themselves in the Sigmas and Okinawa, since the two groups are on pretty good terms and Kusari is busy in the Taus and doesn't want to deal with any trouble in the Sigmas and Okinawa. However, by whatever reason (cultural ties, the original exploration party, previous support, whatever) the Kusari government considers Okinawa part of Kusari territory. It's just that they're ignoring the complications there for now, since there's bigger issues to take care of.
As for whether Okinawa is "officially" GMG territory or not, I'd like to point out that China (PRC) does not recognize Taiwan (ROC) as its own country, even though other countries in the world do. Sovereignty is only "granted" through recognition by other governments. It's also like how Bretonia claims Orkney as a Bretonian system.
Basically, whatever Okinawa was "meant" as, by the developer, has little to do with how it will be treated by in-game entities.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Dab - 04-30-2009
I'd just like to point out, China doesn't make a habit of sending its military forces into Taiwan. There is a difference between recognizing (or not) a sovereignty under control of someone else, and trespassing on that sovereignty with military equipment without prior consent.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Jinx - 04-30-2009
instead of many RL examples that are usually a lot more complex than anything a game can achieve....
how about the GMG just declares whatever territory it claims in a very ooc manner...
before okinawa was populated, no one cared for it - nither the GMG nor the KNF. - now we have a large GMG operation inside it. - i don t see a gameplay issue with the GMG claiming it. - its not like its a dagger in the kusaris back.
the GMG will least likely claim anything from kusari - and at the same time, its unlikely that kusari claims okinawa - why? they got no business there, literally. they haven t invested anything there - they are on at least neutral terms to friendly terms with GMG or at least have been.
a logical way would be to let the GMG do their thing and have business cooperations like kishiro and samura gain shares of GMG to increase a passive and active cooperation authoity instead of "claiming" anything... thats so medieval.
you don t go to your neighbour anymore and black t heir eyes. - wars over territory, influence and power are often much more faught by people in lawsuits than people in camosuits. - the GMG is primarily a business cooperation. they do business - and the best part about business is that ... if conducted on equal terms, it usually results in a win win situation.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - BaconSoda - 04-30-2009
' Wrote:I will agree with you there. This thread's main purpose is to confirm that Okinawa is GMG space and GMG is autonomous.
Autonomous suggests that you can survive on your own. Simply put, without those trade deals with Kishiro, you wouldn't be able to. You survive off of Kusari, as Kusari profits off of you. As the metaphor was made before, you're like Luxembourg. You produce one valuable product (Diamonds in Luxembourg's case, H-Fuel in yours) with very few other products (Steel and other such basic manufactured goods in Luxembourg's case, Plutonium in yours, from Okinawa), and import most of your basic needs and luxuries. You aren't autonomous.
Furthermore, you tend to believe that Kusari can't survive without you. That simply isn't true. Kusari doesn't need you like you need Kusari. Kusari is a major military power, you're a corporation which has invested significant resources into defending its assets in gas mining. Another metaphor I would make is one to the De Biers Family (The family which mines diamonds in Africa). The De Biers family has invested significant amounts of money into protecting its assets in Africa, however, if it was matched with a significant military power, such as the US, Russia, Germany, etc., the De Biers Family would be in trouble.
Now, if the GMG find themselves bold enough to do something like denying the KNF the right to chase a Golden Chrysanthemum pirate, effectively harboring terrorists, then the De Biers Family may just find themselves matched with a global superpower, without anywhere to hide this time around.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Jien Kogen - 05-01-2009
GMG's sovereignty over anything is dependent on the Kusari government recognizing it. GMG has whatever right in Honshu it has, because the Kusari government gives it to them. If the Kusari government decided to nationalize Amori and the GMG assists on Planet Honshu, there is very little the GMG can do. If the Kusari government declares the GMG a hostile power, Kishiro would be forced to choose between Kusari and the GMG, and I would assume they would side with Kusari, leaving the GMG without any way to get their product to their costumers, quickly putting the GMG out of business. If the GMG thinks it can stand against the Kusari government they have a harsh lesson coming.
Also, lets make this very clear, Dab does not dictate the policy of the Kusari government, whether he made the system or not. The Kusari government will decide on these things, the way the Kusari government would, in rp, and without worrying about the infocards and such in Okinawa.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Jien Kogen - 05-01-2009
' Wrote:And about the sovereignty issue; GMG were the first lawfuls to discover the system and were fully able to build a station and claim it before anyone else found it. This situation is completely different from Orkney. Orkney was claimed by BAF, who found it, before anyone had a base or claim there. Okinawa was found and settled by GMG before KNF found out about it, and thats why they were able to get sovereignty. But its not an easy thing to hold on to. Kusari is obviously going to do everything it can to get control, from economic pressures on GMG, political pressure, or even ultimatums. That is to be played out by the players, not the NPCs, because I want players to have a say in how systems progress.
Also, as said; Anything and everything can be changed if reason, RP, and player actions are sufficient to justify it. Okinawa's fate is in the hands of the players in Okinawa. Anything could effect this. Diplomatic deals, attacks, assault events, RP stories, etc. Same goes for Nagano.
Just a couple of things you missed when using that quote from Dab.
In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy - Dab - 05-01-2009
Kusari may be stronger, but GMG does control their source of fuel. Without fuel, a battleship isn't much more than a lump of metal. And if Kusari tries to take over the gas miners, I do not doubt GMG has ways of blowing up their miners so Kusari can't get a hold of them.
And what you're not taking into account is the fact that Kusari is at war. Its not an easy war either. Imagine the U.S. and Russia getting into war right now. Will the U.S. have the available resources to defend their country, invade Russia, control the Pacific Ocean, AND invade France at the same time, all whilst their oil reserves are being cut off and their fuel running out?
Kusari is fighting in Leeds, in the Taus, and at home. Fighting BAF, Mollies, Outcasts, Blood Dragons, Golden Chrysanthemums, and Lane Hackers. One of those, the BAF, is a military power to rival their own. Another, the Outcasts, is nearly as strong as a house military if it devotes a large portion of its assets. Mollies are hindering their efforts to flank the BAF in Leeds. Blood Dragons and GC have, are, and will continue to attack anywhere and everywhere they can inside Kusari. As it is, Kusari is very very vulnerable and not in a very advantageous spot. Many people on skype have said that in the current position, they'd expect KNF to get pushed back out of Leeds because they're forces are so divided, they aren't that strong in any one place.
So take that current situation and inject the loss of fuel (Samura's Hokkaido project is still under development and not producing anything) and a new enemy in the GMG. GMG is pretty powerful. They aren't just there protecting their mining assets.. They're a war-experienced (80 Years War) megacorporation that is in a constant fight with both Corsairs and Outcasts. They're pilots are as good as the KNF's, and they're producing their own ships.
And if KNF really did try to invade Okinawa, the GMG can lock the gate to Honshu and the KNF are stuck with three ways in. One of the two jump holes from Honshu (one already heavily defended by GC/BD), or the entrance from Nagano. That requires them to go through Tohoku, which is no longer a friendly place for the KNF. Invading Okinawa would cause the KNF considerable amounts of casualties, and for what? They get to claim sovereignty over a system in which they have no operations? And the cost is a large number of ships and pilots, both desperately needed, and the destruction of the majority of H-fuel production in Sirius. Bretonia gets his fuel from MOX, and Rheinland does as well. Kusari and Liberty both use H-fuel. With the loss of the GMG, both houses will be competing for access to what little H-fuel they can get. It'll harm Kusari and Liberty in their wars, allowing Rheinland to move forward and allowing Bretonia to retake Leeds and start going into the Taus.
Into this we add the political repercussions from Kishiro and Interspace Commerce. Interspace Commerce has invested in all lawful operations going on in Okinawa, as has Kishiro. If Kusari destroys them (or GMG self-destructs the stations, mines, and gas miners to prevent Kusari from taking them over), both of those organizations are going to be angry, and Kishiro will be broke. There goes one of Kusari's major corporations and a significant portion of their ship production. Again; Hurts their war with Bretonia and soils relations with Liberty. Not to mention the amount of ex-Kishiro employees who will join the Blood Dragons or GC. IC will also step up their funding for GC. Both resistance groups will get huge boosts in recruitment, and GC will get financial aid.
Then with GMG out of the way, Outcasts have an open door into Honshu from Sigma-19. GMG is Kusari's security against Outcasts in the Sigmas. So they'll start having to deal with OC in Honshu and the Taus, BD/GC in all of Kusari, BAF in Leeds, Dundee, and Tau-31, Lane Hackers in Shikoku and Leeds, Mollies in Leeds, and GMG attacking Sigmas, Honshu, and Okinawa (the KNF wouldn't be able to get their bases in Sigma-59. Its doubtful they'd even be able to find it, let alone assault it after losing so much with Okinawa.
Its folly to fight a war on two fronts. This was proven true in WWII. Germany, one of the strongest militaries at the time, who controlled most of Europe and its resources, lost because of it. Kusari, if it invaded Okinawa, would be fighting a war on 3 fronts. Leeds, Taus, Okinawa. They don't have the personnel, they don't have the available ships, and they don't have access to alternate supplies of fuel.
@Jien;
Yes, you're right in that I want the players to decide how this goes, and I expect Kusari to apply pressure on GMG. The purpose of this thread was simply to notify anyone not already aware, that Okinawa currently IS GMG sovereignty. Kusari's actions shouldn't be that it IS their sovereignty, but should be actions designed to MAKE it Kusari sovereignty. You cannot role play while completely ignoring the infocards of the system. The infocards are what says the history and current situation in the system. Any RP would be intertwined with the history of the system. Simply because players are doing this role play doesn't mean they can ignore what they want about what has already happened regarding the system. You gotta take what you've got and work with it, not take away what you don't like.
From what I can tell, you are doing this in a role play sense. Death was just making sure people knew mod facts and history of the system while doing this RP, because the responses we saw in the RP thread seemed to point towards people thinking that Okinawa actually IS part of the Kusari Empire in a mod sense, which it isn't. Its currently GMG sovereignty.