+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+---- Forum: Discovery Mod Balance (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Godslayer Balance Essay (/showthread.php?tid=205905)
Godslayer Balance Essay - The_Godslayer - 11-30-2024
Godslayer Balance Essay
Discord: the_godslayer
Forum DM
Greetings, Balance and the Community at Large:
Balance is a permanently difficult question, I will not deny it. It is the bane of any game designer with an environment capable of competition. As soon as a player versus player option is presented, balance becomes a permanently upfront and notoriously delicate question. Ignoring balance makes the game unplayable in the most literal sense. However, since the cruiser rework in the 4.XX’s, I feel that balance has been handled somewhere between suboptimally and very poorly.
The very first, most prominent problem is the concept most completely captured by the Korean competitive gaming community term “썩은물” (seogeunmul), or “Stagnant/Rotten Water”. The term refers to a competitive or semi-competitive game community that has had very little or no changes, where the masters of the game are so far above the average that they are permanently untouchable, and have been for a long time. While the actions taken by balance in regard to Capital Ships has, in fact, partially solved this problem, the actions in regards to snubs have not. This has also introduced other problems, which I will continue to elaborate on.
The second problem is a matter of efficacy and engagement in battle. In a well-timed and well-formed thread by Chuba, a very common, and perhaps the most common, community sentiment was that inputting effort into raising their skill level provided little to no reward. The top reason for this was the aforementioned “Stagnant Water”, in that the top competitors were untouchable regardless of practice effort. Other, very important reasons, however, included current balance significantly downplaying personal interaction. In a quote:
(11-12-2024, 02:11 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: For me, I really enjoy PvP in games where you can do some cool shit, share the clip with people and it's fairly easy to appreciate what is going on even to someone with only surface-level knowledge of the game. [...] In essence THIS GAME HAS NO SAUCE.There is no “compilation potential”, like was had with SNAC compilations, anywhere in the game currently. All forms of PvP are currently agonizingly slow, mechanically overburdened, or both.
The third problem is the matter of the combat fantasy of each faction. These fantasies, since the cruiser rework at the very least, but especially since 5.0, have been either not met, denied, or actively stamped out. The most egregious act in this regard is the removal of the Hurricane’s forward guns, completely stomping on the Coalition Fantasy of unleashing a forward gun barrage, mimicking the Freelancer Opening Cutscene, while loudly blasting the USSR marching song of your choice (Or the Red Alert 3 Theme). Other such fantasy losses include K’Hara permacloak and the “Predator in the Nebulas” fantasy, and the LibDread and Bismark’s “Unstoppable Force” and “Immovable Object”, respectively.
Currently, the entire focus of balance is on “winning” and “effort put in to win”, leading to horribly labor intensive fight mechanics like battlecruisers controlling strafe, turn, roll, shield regen, weapon groups, and crosshair snap, let alone managing enemy missiles and actually aiming and firing your own weapons. Your reward for managing all of these simultaneously is 10 or less seconds of firing your weapons at an enemy who is also doing the same in order to minimize how much damage you can do to them, and likely being forced off your angle of attack by another member of the groupfight, or reaching a position where you need to drastically change your orientation to allow your guns to fire again. In short, you put an extreme amount of effort in, and your reward is the feeling of impotence, ineffectiveness, and relative uselessness, regardless of your real contribution. This sentiment is echoed in many balance complaints, but I'll include the freshest example here.
(11-25-2024, 09:26 PM)Steven.Hiller Wrote: But then all was cleared and revealed the favour was thrown to snubs
as all their guns could do damage on any cap but even after draining a caps core completely
could barely take down 1 gunboats shields and not even singlehanded drain 1 snub as its impossible to
hit and if u manage to drain the shield the power core is completely drained and the snub just regen.
And Cap still sit with Empty core with bunch a enemy craft against it and able to do Jack.
So here with forward fully stating,
withdrawing 100% from any event since the big nerf on cap guns
snubs conn bots can have the whole event to themselves not interested in playing it anymore.
To contrast this, I offer the age of CDable Missiles. Even your worst snub pilots can be on CD duty, and despite flaks and other options existing, they can contribute in a visible and meaningful way to the group fight. CDable missiles also did not suffer from the “Discovery has no sauce”, as a difficult but cool trickshot was CDing a torpedo fired at snubs to detonate it. I myself rarely play capital ships anymore due to the sensation of complete impotence in combat, regardless of successfully attacking a target or not.
The other two main points cannot be relevantly contrasted with older versions, due to the Stagnant Water effect being unchanged as per older versions, obviously, and due to faction fantasy being nearly non-existent in the current environment.
I am primarily not here to focus on people's emotional content. Nostalgia is a pleasant and highly addictive mentality, and I'd like to separate this topic as far from it as possible. All my forum PvP would be, ideally, rooted in logic.
I have little to no interest in solving the Stagnant Water issue. I acknowledge that it is a problem for most of the community, but I have no input on it so I'll recuse myself from that particular argument. One of my favorite pastimes was simply seeing if Wesker was online, and logging something hostile to get PvPd to disastrous effect. "I did hull damage" was a legitimate bragging point for me, and was a euphoric feeling.
I have a vested interest in solving the other two problems. I firmly believe that not solving these problems makes PvP not fun in its most basic form, and that not solving the faction fantasy problem bleeds into ruining RP experience as well. PvP and RP are all I do on this game. My engagement with PvE, PoBs, and powertrading are very minimal and usually a forced interaction due to ingame money constraints.
My main goal with this thread is to create a floor to acknowledge the problems and to instigate the process of inventing options and solutions. I find it paramount to gain a broad degree of options and ideas before judging or deciding on any of them. I do not encourage arguing against other peoples points, narrowing options or cutting off ideas with absolutes and "win-lose scenarios". We can judge ideas and reach conclusions in a different thread (or, ideally, Balance will).
What I'm asking everyone is to participate in a collective search for solutions, especially reasonable and well-explained solutions, for the problems presented. We currently have very impressive individuals on the development team, we are in the environment best suited to fix these problems. So, I look forward to your responses.
tl;dr: Godslayer Balance Essay. Scroll back up and read the post you lazy bastard.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Chenzo- - 11-30-2024
The totally exploited game mechanic in a 1v1 snub fight allowing the master of the hack to permanently sit behind their less experienced foe was only ever counter-able with insta kill moves. In a ten min fight your enemy is on you screen for maybe 30seconds in total, which is the only time you can unleash this damage.
The “balance” team decided they would rather be 100% untouchable so removed the insta kill moves- dressing it up as making it easier for the average player when really, it was removing any hope of them ever dealing meaningful damage.
Likewise with capitals, any advantage or usable playoff was removed. A skilful player in a battleship could fend off multiple enemy capitals with no mechanic abusing hiding, just forward planning and pure skill. The dev team didn’t like this as they don’t poses that skill- it was nerfed so capitals suck.
Genuinely, if balance was left the hell alone and returned to 4.84 when the game was playable- players would enjoy pvp again & the cancerous hold of the top abusers would once again be restored.
It won’t happen, the balance dev is far too self obsessed and has many rehearsed dismissal quotes to pawn you off with.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Backo - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 11:21 AM)Chenzo- Wrote: The totally exploited game mechanic in a 1v1 snub fight allowing the master of the hack to permanently sit behind their less experienced foe was only ever counter-able with insta kill moves. In a ten min fight your enemy is on you screen for maybe 30seconds in total, which is the only time you can unleash this damage.
The “balance” team decided they would rather be 100% untouchable so removed the insta kill moves- dressing it up as making it easier for the average player when really, it was removing any hope of them ever dealing meaningful damage.
This statement is funny since the ace players also could use those very same insta-kill weapons which sometimes resulted in them going 1v5+ and winning with full nanobots in the end. Because even if 5 people were shooting you and draining your nanobots slowly, it took 1 hit to restore 60+ nanobots and be very well back in the fight. If anything, the insta-kill weapons were more an ace's weapon than a newbie's, as they provided much more efficient way to kill enemies and also self-heal, something which the 10 minute slowly drain him out of bats/bots weaponry did not provide.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Madvillain - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 12:48 PM)Backo Wrote:(11-30-2024, 11:21 AM)Chenzo- Wrote: The totally exploited game mechanic in a 1v1 snub fight allowing the master of the hack to permanently sit behind their less experienced foe was only ever counter-able with insta kill moves. In a ten min fight your enemy is on you screen for maybe 30seconds in total, which is the only time you can unleash this damage.
The “balance” team decided they would rather be 100% untouchable so removed the insta kill moves- dressing it up as making it easier for the average player when really, it was removing any hope of them ever dealing meaningful damage.
This statement is funny since the ace players also could use those very same insta-kill weapons which sometimes resulted in them going 1v5+ and winning with full nanobots in the end. Because even if 5 people were shooting you and draining your nanobots slowly, it took 1 hit to restore 60+ nanobots and be very well back in the fight. If anything, the insta-kill weapons were more an ace's weapon than a newbie's, as they provided much more efficient way to kill enemies and also self-heal, something which the 10 minute slowly drain him out of bats/bots weaponry did not provide.
While I disagree with most of Chenzo's reply, especially the emotions, I do think the 30 seconds on screen part holds some merit, especially when considering group fights rather than duels. I've seen group battles devolve into one sided slaughter far too often, with one side lacking aces being unable to shift the balance even slightly in their favor. While I don’t enjoy getting instakilled, something that happened to me just yesterday from a missile launched by a capital ship in the first five minutes of the event, it does give players who would otherwise stand no chance a fighting opportunity. If players feel they have no chance of winning, they’re likely to lose interest and stop participating altogether.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - The_Godslayer - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 01:11 PM)Madvillain Wrote: While I don’t enjoy getting instakilled, something that happened to me just yesterday from a missile launched by a capital ship in the first five minutes of the event, it does give players who would otherwise stand no chance a fighting opportunity. If players feel they have no chance of winning, they’re likely to lose interest and stop participating altogether.
The loss of the respective "Noob Tubes" from the game, SNACs, SHFs, and Battleships from roughly the 4.91 era, have been tragic for new players and unskilled players participation in the game environment. The new mechanical intensity has driven the skill floor up, and pulled the rug out from under the feet of many players, most of which I'm guessing don't play anymore.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - -Rax- - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 11:21 AM)Chenzo- Wrote: The totally exploited game mechanic in a 1v1 snub fight allowing the master of the hack to permanently sit behind their less experienced foe was only ever counter-able with insta kill moves. In a ten min fight your enemy is on you screen for maybe 30seconds in total, which is the only time you can unleash this damage.
The “balance” team decided they would rather be 100% untouchable so removed the insta kill moves- dressing it up as making it easier for the average player when really, it was removing any hope of them ever dealing meaningful damage.
Likewise with capitals, any advantage or usable playoff was removed. A skilful player in a battleship could fend off multiple enemy capitals with no mechanic abusing hiding, just forward planning and pure skill. The dev team didn’t like this as they don’t poses that skill- it was nerfed so capitals suck.
Genuinely, if balance was left the hell alone and returned to 4.84 when the game was playable- players would enjoy pvp again & the cancerous hold of the top abusers would once again be restored.
It won’t happen, the balance dev is far too self obsessed and has many rehearsed dismissal quotes to pawn you off with.
what if you use mines?
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Haste - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 01:33 PM)The_Godslayer Wrote:(11-30-2024, 01:11 PM)Madvillain Wrote: While I don’t enjoy getting instakilled, something that happened to me just yesterday from a missile launched by a capital ship in the first five minutes of the event, it does give players who would otherwise stand no chance a fighting opportunity. If players feel they have no chance of winning, they’re likely to lose interest and stop participating altogether.
The loss of the respective "Noob Tubes" from the game, SNACs, SHFs, and Battleships from roughly the 4.91 era, have been tragic for new players and unskilled players participation in the game environment. The new mechanical intensity has driven the skill floor up, and pulled the rug out from under the feet of many players, most of which I'm guessing don't play anymore.
The noob tube I used to win against 1v6-and-worse odds for the better part of a decade? The one you could shieldrun away from in the vast majority of fighters in the game, hinging entirely on implied fair play rules to even be viable? Yes, there's some sick shots on Antonio's Youtube, but as someone once (well-) described as "a bomber abuser with no fighter skill" (this was before I learned to mash WASD in an Odin), I can say that the common outcome of using SNACs was one of the below options:
- Dumpstering twelve Judges in California, solo.
- One-passing a couple-week-old player in a Guardian next to West Point.
- Venting your frustrations about [Insert Veteran Player Here] shieldrunning away from your EMP+SNAC bomber all the way from the Freeport in Magellan to California Minor with five highly skilled bombers in pursuit.
- Killing twenty-three Battleships with six Bombers in the span of eight hours, suffering zero losses.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - TheSauron - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 11:21 AM)Chenzo- Wrote: he totally exploited game mechanic in a 1v1 snub fight allowing the master of the hack to permanently sit behind their less experienced foe was only ever counter-able with insta kill moves. In a ten min fight your enemy is on you screen for maybe 30seconds in total, which is the only time you can unleash this damage.
Turn the opposite way. Their momentum will carry them back onto your screen.
As for the whole SNAC debate, I really wish it'd just die. The typical fighter on fighter TTK can range anywhere between five to ten minutes. You cannot have an instakill (or a 15 second TTK with fuses now) weapon in that kind of environment. All it does is give these dreaded aces one more tool to perfect average players with.
(11-30-2024, 02:05 AM)The_Godslayer Wrote: While the actions taken by balance in regard to Capital Ships has, in fact, partially solved this problem, the actions in regards to snubs have not.
They have. Between high velocity guns, reliable missiles, strafe nerfs, shield resizing, removal of instakills and addition of fuses snub combat is more accessible than it's ever been. Newbies and average players were never the beneficiary of the instakill cheese. They were just a statistic in some ace's most recent killstreak.
(11-30-2024, 02:05 AM)The_Godslayer Wrote: There is no “compilation potential”, like was had with SNAC compilations, anywhere in the game currently. All forms of PvP are currently agonizingly slow, mechanically overburdened, or both.
And there never will be unless Discovery is returned to vanilla-tier time-to-kill values. I'll let you guess whether this'll benefit the untouchable gods or the common man more. It's the price we pay in order to have the PvP system be slow and accessible enough for average players to be able to contribute. You can either have it be quick and flashy, or accessible. Not both.
(11-30-2024, 02:05 AM)The_Godslayer Wrote: The third problem is the matter of the combat fantasy of each faction.
That is a paragraph I can actually agree with. There's been a significant loss of identity across the ship roster, but at the same time, is it realy feasible to maintain said variety while keeping the balance workload manageable? Much as I miss it, I don't think I'd be willing to risk going to back to Gallic War era of balance for the sake of some ship flavour. I sure as hell wasn't the beneficiary of it back then, and I don't fancy a repeat of that.
(11-30-2024, 02:05 AM)The_Godslayer Wrote: I am primarily not here to focus on people's emotional content. Nostalgia is a pleasant and highly addictive mentality, and I'd like to separate this topic as far from it as possible. All my forum PvP would be, ideally, rooted in logic.
(11-30-2024, 01:33 PM)The_Godslayer Wrote: The loss of the respective "Noob Tubes" from the game, SNACs, SHFs, and Battleships from roughly the 4.91 era, have been tragic for new players and unskilled players participation in the game environment. The new mechanical intensity has driven the skill floor up, and pulled the rug out from under the feet of many players, most of which I'm guessing don't play anymore.
Having the above two quotes side-by-side tickles me pink, not gonna lie.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Culbrelai - 11-30-2024
Yeah the snac was the great equalizer, shame it left along with other fun loadouts like 16 solaris libdreads. Now I can guess loadouts easily, the locked slots are super duper lame. What’s the harm in letting me mount 6 razors? Zzz boooring
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Haste - 11-30-2024
(11-30-2024, 02:01 PM)TheSauron Wrote: As for the whole SNAC debate, I really wish it'd just die. The typical fighter on fighter TTK can range anywhere between five to ten minutes. You cannot have an instakill (or a 15 second TTK with fuses now) weapon in that kind of environment. All it does is give these dreaded aces one more tool to perfect average players with.
If I'm completely honest, I actually think the main blocker isn't the reduced TTK. It's the fact that they're a weapon from an era where we had Very Heavy Fighters the size of a modern Patriot -- shield hitbox included. I don't really see a way to reasonably balance it without giving it negative muzzle velocity in a game that has functioning, reasonably-sized hitboxes that -- as you pointed out -- are designed to allow weaker players to actually do some damage.
I also am someone who believes skill levels, for the most part, continuously go up in a game like (Discovery) Freelancer. Sure, in a smaller population the growth of player skill as a whole will slow down and perhaps even stagnate entirely, but players are still better than they were ten years ago. Combine that with the aforementioned hitrate improvements and a SNAC with even remotely sane stats is going to completely dominate the game.