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+---- Thread: Treatise on Bombers (/showthread.php?tid=26685)
Treatise on Bombers - elgeeko - 09-16-2009
I am not fond of people asking for nerfs or buffs simply based on the outcome of one incident.
But having seen a fair few complaints about bombers, flown one myself for a bit, and heard many suggestions for what to do about them; I would like to present an inspiration that struck me.
Simply put; specialize bombers into two subclasses
The longer explanation;
Divide bombers into two subsets; light bombers and heavy bombers
Light Bombers are;
1; Primarily Police or Pirate ships
2; Geared mainly for the interdiction of transports and the destruction of enemy gunboats
Heavy Bombers are;
1; Military ONLY ships
2; The only bombers capable of using the SNAC
3; geared primarily for the destruction of cruiser class and above
So Light bombers would be balanced so that they are;
*quite effective against transports in a fair and balanced fashion
*low-to-medium effectiveness against freighters depending on size
*low-to-medium effectiveness against medium grade fighters
*medium-to-high effectiveness against gunboats
*very low effectiveness against anything above a gunboat or high grade fighters
(The exception being that potentially large groups of them could have medium effectiveness against some capships)
*very low-to-low effectiveness against other bombers of either subclass
Heavy bombers would be balanced so that they are;
*low effectiveness against transports
*no effectiveness against freighters
*very low effectiveness against fighters, merely durability for a short time
*quite effective against capital ships above gunboat in a fair and balanced fashion
*medium effectiveness against gunboats
*no effectiveness against other bombers of either subclass
So the new LPI bomber is a perfect example of a potential light bomber. Under the proposed system its role in the LPI is interdiction of smuggling as opposed to LPI fighters who's job is general peacekeeping, crime prevention, and escort of the bomber in some cases.
Any house military bomber is an example of a heavy bomber. Its job would be solely to fly with escorts to take out large capital ships. Nothing more or less than that.
Naturally the catch here is with the ROC and Havoc. They are civilian ships, so I'd suggest they be cut back to light bomber, or at least one of them be cut back to light bomber and the other switched to heavy.
The only other Issue I can foresee is with the Outcasts and Corsairs who would have a use for both types of bomber. This can either be fixed by making their bombers heavy bombers for use in fleet actions thus limiting their pirating to other ships, or by giving them a bomber of each type.
This proposal would end the unrealistic ability of pirates (excepting the 'houses' (Outcasts and Corsairs)) to have a ship capable of taking on Navy capital ships
It would end the use of bombers as 'god-ships' while continuing to give them useful exciting and balanced roles.
It would also more realistically follow the 'chain of development' (IE Police and pirates prefer something built for interdiction, militaries on the other hand need anti-capital ship weapons)
And lastly it would make escorts a realistic and valuable asset to transport-traders again.
So, this is just an inspiration. Keep the talk civil, logical, and constructive please :)
If nothing else, I hope it stimulates people to think logically about balance.
Treatise on Bombers - Grimly - 09-16-2009
More development of what you mean ?
Quote:Heavy bombers would be balanced so that they are;
*low effectiveness against transports
*no effectiveness against freighters
*very low effectiveness against fighters, merely durability for a short time
*quite effective against capital ships above gunboat in a fair and balanced fashion
*medium effectiveness against gunboats
*no effectiveness against other bombers of either subclass
How is it just possible ?
Treatise on Bombers - elgeeko - 09-16-2009
I don't pretend to know all the answers, presumably people who have had balancing experience are better equipped to answer questions about exactly how to do it.
My somewhat-educated guess would be that heavy bombers receive a slight agility decrease, slight armor increase, and major weapons (excepting the torpedo slots) decrease.
I'd also guess that torpedo weapons/the SNAC would receive some sort of speed or agility change to make it impossible to hit fighters with them and ships like transports can evade/destroy them but battleships can not.
Light bombers on the other hand would receive little change from current bombers except that they would be unable to fire larger/upper class torpedo weapons (most especially not the snac) and might receive a mild armor decrease.
Again, just guesses, this would be a highly involved process as is any logical well done balancing.
It would also likely involve serious modifications to the torpedo weapons.
I'm just suggesting what the end goal/result should be.
Treatise on Bombers - Grimly - 09-16-2009
' Wrote:I don't pretend to know all the answers, presumably people who have had balancing experience are better equipped to answer questions about exactly how to do it.What I mean is :
My somewhat-educated guess would be that heavy bombers receive a slight agility decrease, slight armor increase, and major weapons (excepting the torpedo slots) decrease.
I'd also guess that torpedo weapons/the SNAC would receive some sort of speed or agility change to make it impossible to hit fighters with them and ships like transports can evade/destroy them but battleships can not.
Light bombers on the other hand would receive little change from current bombers except that they would be unable to fire larger/upper class torpedo weapons (most especially not the snac) and might receive a mild armor decrease.
Again, just guesses, this would be a highly involved process as is any logical well done balancing.
It would also likely involve serious modifications to the torpedo weapons.
I'm just suggesting what the end goal/result should be.
Make transport dodge supernova so a gunboat will do even better and a destroyer will as well.
Big transports agility is designed like the destroyers, so for you a bomber can't kill a dessie.
Maybe you should play as corsair or rogue/hacker a bit more. Don't mind to ask for change before you did. You don't know how hard it is to fly as pirate well.
Treatise on Bombers - tansytansey - 09-16-2009
You'll find Heavy Bombers are the best for piracy... a Light Bomber's power plant barely cuts mustard when it comes to bringing down the shield (when compared with heavy bombers.)
In fact... heavy bombers are about better at everything except killing fighters.
Treatise on Bombers - guitarguy - 09-16-2009
Perhaps give heavy bombers three torp mounts, one CD mount, and two class 10 gun mounts. Then put on a freighter shield and an armor and powerplant buff but cut maneuverability. Also, the Nova should be improved, probably with damage increase and/or lower cost.
Treatise on Bombers - schlurbi - 09-16-2009
THREE Torp Mounts? Dear God, insane....
Treatise on Bombers - reavengitair - 09-16-2009
But RP wise, it would be that the pirates get the light bombers and the military get the heavy ones. It would also make pirates weaker:P
Treatise on Bombers - JakeSG - 09-16-2009
You people are insane. Also, in the absence of heavy bombers, what do you propose pirates do when a big, nasty Dreadnought camps, say, Alcatraz? Unrealistic it may be for pirates to be able to fight the Navy, but if we were to account RP totally we'd have a completely one-sided balance, lawfuls plain dominating everyone and everything. No. Never. Nope. RP should not be accounted into balance, not on any game worth its salt.
Treatise on Bombers - El Nino - 09-16-2009
So this would really change Light bombers in to SHF's.
And Military bombers to super heavy bombers... so we'd have what 7 or so real SN bombers?
This is quite a good suggestion. I guess very worthwhile I hope Mjolnir notes it.
IF bombers were to get special guns that harm light ships well I guess you can hurt a cruiser with a high powered fighter spamm. And same goes for battleships, if you get guns with long enough range with enough ships and firepower you can hurt anything. No need really for supernova.
It's not like lawfuls camp pirate bases, except the ocasional BHG cap in Corsair space... I guess Corsairs and Outcasts are pretty much a house and they'd need heavy bombers. But what about hessians? They would be then defensless against a Corsair cap invasion. And so would be any other faction unfriendly to corsairs.. (many there be).
While a fun Idea it would require some rethinking. With pirates unable to pirate in cruiser there is no need for police and escorts to have heavy bombers, they are better of in specialised transport and gunboat killers.
Military would be called in to do massive damage to pirate caps if they invade a system, all good roleplay. Perhaps a new rule that you are not allowed to pirate in "military" bombers. It would be easily forseen for outcasts and corsairs to have both types of bombers...
If this is to work, we'll have to seriusly work on your idea, and even then many people might not like it.