+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: Immersion (/showthread.php?tid=29710)
Pages:
1
2
Immersion - eyvind - 11-11-2009
The Asgard, a narrative by Beck
The Yukai Han, an expositon by Dusty Lens
OS&C Orinoco, an advertisement by Carlos Benitez
The official Lane Hacker player faction Skype chat
Give me more threads related to the subject and I will include them.
The Yukai Han, an expositon by Dusty Lens
OS&C Orinoco, an advertisement by Carlos Benitez
The official Lane Hacker player faction Skype chat
Give me more threads related to the subject and I will include them.
* * *
Imagine a giant corporation. Imagine a magnificently and corruptly awe-inspiring and massive wealth. Imagine prospective employees walking into the elaborate and immensely spacious lobby of a sprawling yet rigidly organized complex of office blocks, conference towers with corporate penthouse suites, and expansive rooms of clerk-manned cubicles. Imagine fleets of commercial ships orbited by countless escort craft, maintenance ships boring purposefully through the midst. Imagine the joy of employees as they are assigned to the crew of a capital transport. Imagine the elation and eye-glistening pride of an employee being promoted to her first command. Imagine the life-style of a commercial captain.
Role-playing allows this and anything else, but does the dialog-style role-play in Freelancer allow this?
I feel that the lack of narrative description of in-game Freelancer role-play is a major limitation in this regard. Brief line-by-line emotes, accompanied by game play and visuals, is used in place of such descriptive elements prevalent in other role-play.
Immersion is essential to any game. It can be argued that it is less important for role-playing; imagination can often make up for the lack of immersion provided by a game. Imagination is complex phenomenon, however, and if it is to be shared with other players then imaginative product must either be implied or explicated. If it is implied, one player will invariably imagine differently than every other. This can cause inconsistencies as well as present a marked obstacle to the natural flow of role-play.
It is often preferred to describe.
This does not come easy in most situations Discovery Freelancer presents players with. Encounters develop quickly, accommodation of other players' role-play is uncommon, and there is quite practically little room to employ even the most conventional descriptive role-play. Reduction to dialog takes place.
The Freelancer engine provides superb immersion. The addition of flyable large ships to this engine without any significant compensation has diluted this immersion in some aspects of Discovery Freelancer, in my opinion. Fighter piloting game-play translated to capital ships and transports is a result of technical limitation. Ideal immersion would likely only be possible through a drastic modification of the game-play of these new ships.
Are capital ships flown by a pilot, a pilot who also controls weapons? Of course that is a possibility, but it is not an assumption that provides for maximum immersion into the role of a capital ship crew.
* * *
Imagine a wing of fighters and small freighters. Imagine aging ships maintained by their pilots. Imagine the arduous road of toil the multitude of freelancers take in their aspirations of flying a spaceship. Imagine carrying your entire networth within the hull of your ship. Imagine the satisfaction of a successful mission. Imagine the gradual upgrades to your ship with every station you visit. Imagine the dismay at every setback pirates and terrorists bring upon you.
The Freelancer game engine was designed for this and pulls it off wonderfully. The immersion is fantastic.
To experience this immersion you don't need much description or narrative. Personal emotes is often enough to tell the collaborative story.
* * *
Beck's story of the BHG Core ship Asgard succeeds exceptionally in putting the reader into the situation. He manages this with powerful descriptions of perception and emotion, descriptions that are difficult to pull off well in a live role-playing environment with the circumstances of Discovery. This is most certainly a problem of accommodation.
A reasonable sentiment of accommodating other people's roleplay is crucial to the wellbeing of any role-playing environment. If one player spews line after line of speech, largely ignoring attempts by his co-player to participate there is little true roleplaying to speak of. This is a problem that shows up in many situations in Discovery Freelancer, most typically in the trader-pirate encounters.
An inescapable evil? Perhaps. An inescapable evil that has kept the Discovery Freelancer RP 24/7 server from being a focused roleplaying server. Granted, many other factors have contributed to this. Granted, it may simply be a matter of convention, definition, culture, and paradigm.
Hence, it's not the essential topic.
* * *
Dusty's exposition demonstrates another side of the coin.
(Ironically, it also demonstrates the same problems and obstacles mentioned above; it mentions the problems, but perhaps more unintentionally and indirectly.)
This other side of the coin is closer to Freelancer's original design, it is a mode of play that benefits the most from Freelancers successful immersive properties that have made the game to what it is. Not "freelancing," as such, but the road freelancers take; "the arduous road of toil the multitude of freelancers take in their aspirations of flying a spaceship."
This is a mode of play used by a number of people. It has been used in the past, it is used today, and it will undoubtedly be used in the future.
The official Lane Hacker player faction, as Dusty mentions, may be the epitome of this. LH has kept to this play style for 2 years (the 2 year mark is coming up in a matter of weeks) and the enjoyment we have experience, those of us who have gone through the recruitment, initiation, and promotion advancements, are far better off for it. Some may have forgotten and left it behind -- to you I say, "Remember!" -- but enough of us carry on the legacy, in as much as we are able.
Individual players have at least gotten a taste of it. I remember one day not too many months ago that two DSE Mastodons hired a Startracker (flown by Sindroms, as it turned out) in Pennsylvania to escort them. The trip was cut short, unfortunately. [If someone could find Sindrom's journal-like post that described that day from the eyes of his character, I would appreciate it.]
I have only been lucky enough to experience or even bear witness to the phenomenon a few times, but it has invariably been memorable.
Immersion - Primus Avatar - 11-11-2009
You are absolutely right about this.
The thing is, I've always considered freelancer (the sole game) as a fun path a player can take.
Your goal in singleplayer was to become stronger, and if you were smart enough to embark beyond the main quest you could explore a LOT more and acquire better tech. This community has taken this game numerous levels beyond the main design, stimulating coherent, complex player interaction, amplifying immersion elements in-game by adding numerous rumors and descriptions, all flyable ships and the ability to experience alternative storylines (Coalition, Harvesters, Wilde & Nomads, Colonial and Terrorist)
Bringing rules into disorder to protect the stability of those elements proved to be the key to success for this community, rising the standards above mere PVP that had lost its flavor (like a burrito without any spice)
Your post made my day.
Immersion - Dusty Lens - 11-11-2009
' Wrote:A reasonable sentiment of accommodating other people's roleplay is crucial to the wellbeing of any role-playing environment. If one player spews line after line of speech, largely ignoring attempts by his co-player to participate there is little true roleplaying to speak of. This is a problem that shows up in many situations in Discovery Freelancer, most typically in the trader-pirate encounters.
(Ironically, it also demonstrates the same problems and obstacles mentioned above; it mentions the problems, but perhaps more unintentionally and indirectly.)
I see what you're trying to do there and I feel that it's necessary to challenge your position.
Your claim that there needs to be a certain degree of give and take between two parties to maintain the wellbeing of any etc etc is a flawed concept. Contextually I understand that the example you're inferring/blatantly laying down is the recent one of my group wandering into Pennsylvania to relieve you of your faction's accumulated largess. Lets explore that relationship for a moment so that I might illustrate where your assessment has fallen off the tracks.
The position inferred by "A reasonable sentiment of accommodating other people's roleplay is crucial to the wellbeing of any role-playing environment." seems to be that a certain degree of quid pro quo is required to maintain the wellbeing of the environment. What I believe you mean by that, reinforced within the context of it serving as a response to a thread in which I illustrated that the Yukai-Han had proceeded to rob you silly, is that the roleplay environment is cheapened by one group sticking a number of guns at the other group and thereafter determining the flow of events by right of force irregardless of the hopes and protests of the defending party.
To which I say whooey. Or olololol if you will.
Which is entirely warranted as your entire treatise on immersion is a one demanding that players provide one another with a certain level of your view of fair play. You're making an argument for simulated experience based upon meta principles.
An example of which, to take a cue from you, might be one of those scenarios where my party proceeded to
' Wrote:spews line after line of speech, largely ignoring attempts by his co-player to participate there is little true roleplaying to speak of.We have six transports. Our goal is to fill them with your ore. We have no obstacles in our path because you have made a, dare I say, roleplay decision to not fuss with such things. I have no interest in your counter demands, I have no interest in your negotiations. I am roleplaying a gentleman who has traveled a very long way indeed to take possession of something on your person which I covet.
The only line of dialog that exists between us, at that point, is the one that I establish. The dynamics of the scenario are largely in my favor. If the situation might change so that I was pushed to hedge my bets in order to see my desired outcome satisfied then I might alter my tune.
The pressure isn't on me to bend over backwards to ensure that your view of immersion is satisfied. Especially not when your view of immersion seems to be that my group of proactive and forgetful borrowers sits in a roundtable and listens thoughtfully to your negotiations which outline a scenario in which we receive a fraction of what we're able to demand through right of force.
The consideration that you get is that our request for goods is tempered by my desire to not overly harm the player on the other side. The consideration that you recieve from my character is tempered by the environment in which he operates.
Don't presume to mix the two as means of condemning the delightful show of charming wit and drama that I present to you, red hot and sizzling on the skillet, on the occasion that you should find me at your doorstep with hat and gun in hand requesting a humble donation to salve the wounds of a nation at war.
Bring some bombers instead. They talk louder.
Immersion - Primus Avatar - 11-11-2009
it would seem my prior post was misplaced.... i didn't realize you guys had a problem with each other.
You both present good points, it would be a shame to try and outwit each other since it can only ultimately lead to paradox and contradiction.
Immersion - Dusty Lens - 11-12-2009
Problem with each other? Wut?
I don't have an ounce of problem with Eyvind. Just his argument.
Immersion - darthbeck - 11-12-2009
' Wrote:Beck's story of the BHG Core ship Asgard succeeds exceptionally in putting the reader into the situation. He manages this with powerful descriptions of perception and emotion, descriptions that are difficult to pull off well in a live role-playing environment with the circumstances of Discovery. This is most certainly a problem of accommodation.
Thanks for the glowing praise, it makes me happy.
I have to agree with you that immersion is something the game normally lacks, but that is mainly due to to the nature of the game style.
Space Shooter.
Not that trying to increase the feeling of immersion is bad, but you need to understand that it is a game, just like any other roleplaying game. It can only get so real.
On antoher note, i practically go ballistic when someone ruins my immersion with a //nice job, four bombers on one BS... vary fair...
Immersion - eyvind - 11-12-2009
This thread was originally horribly misunderstood. I asked a moderator to clean this thread up and all the concerned posts have been hidden; if you never saw the posts, you have only missed an unfortunate discussion brought about by a simple misunderstanding.
Let me give you my explanation, paraphrased from the private version.
This thread has nothing to do with what Dusty did with his group of Kusari freelancers. I respect what he did and have no problem with it. In fact, the original post of this thread is more in support of that type of gameplay than in argument against it. One of the reasons this became a new thread rather than a reply to The Yukai Hun was so that it wouldn't be confused with a direct response to the experiment and related incidents. I linked to that thread from here, and to this thread from there, because The Yukai Hun is the reason this thread exists.
Dusty mentioned that he hoped for change, and this thread is the fundamental reasoning behind some drastic changes. I am hopeful that the changes will be in-line with what you had in mind.
* * *
Some of you, fortunately, have not missed the point. You voiced your contributions and opinions, agreements or disagreements, here or elsewhere. A thread is little without that, but misunderstanding rarely fosters good.
' Wrote:You are absolutely right about this.
The thing is, I've always considered freelancer (the sole game) as a fun path a player can take.
Your goal in singleplayer was to become stronger, and if you were smart enough to embark beyond the main quest you could explore a LOT more and acquire better tech. This community has taken this game numerous levels beyond the main design, stimulating coherent, complex player interaction, amplifying immersion elements in-game by adding numerous rumors and descriptions, all flyable ships and the ability to experience alternative storylines (Coalition, Harvesters, Wilde & Nomads, Colonial and Terrorist)
Bringing rules into disorder to protect the stability of those elements proved to be the key to success for this community, rising the standards above mere PVP that had lost its flavor (like a burrito without any spice)
Your post made my day.
Thank you.
' Wrote:Thanks for the glowing praise, it makes me happy.
I have to agree with you that immersion is something the game normally lacks, but that is mainly due to to the nature of the game style.
Space Shooter.
Not that trying to increase the feeling of immersion is bad, but you need to understand that it is a game, just like any other roleplaying game. It can only get so real.
On antoher note, i practically go ballistic when someone ruins my immersion with a //nice job, four bombers on one BS... vary fair...
Yes, I agree with you. There are all manners of gameplay available to us in Discovery Freelancer, each with varying degrees of immersion. It's a balance, preference, and in the end potentially just a conscious decision.
Immersion - Dusty Lens - 11-12-2009
A post on the subject of immersion whilst we wait for Bluespawn to finish the slideshow presentation on my failings and n00bl3t to post his zing.
The subject on my noggin is skype.
Skype is, in my humble opinion, not the greatest favor discovery has ever done itself. Skype is a grand tool for organization, passing information and voice communication across the globe. It's been more or less touted as an essential tool for factions.
Though I wonder if the communication spam across channels might not be detracting from the communication we might see on the forum or in game. If I witnessed, for example, 1/100th of the jabber which took place in the old XA chat in the message dump, let alone in the bar thread, let alone in character development our forum would be exploding with storytelling and information passing.
Right now forum participation is virtually considered a chore by many. I understand that I am not a shining star in this regard, chiefly due to an understanding that my writing skills are somewhere between that of a disadvantaged penguin and a boy who has served a near lethal blow to the head by a wiffle ball bat.
I don't have a group to lead around by the nose right now. But if I did I would try to test this theory to the best of my ability. Kill skype for anything other than the most basic emergency communication and do all other communication, to the point of simple questions, on the forum and see what comes of it.
Immersion - eyvind - 11-12-2009
' Wrote:The subject on my noggin is skype.
Skype is, in my humble opinion, not the greatest favor discovery has ever done itself. Skype is a grand tool for organization, passing information and voice communication across the globe. It's been more or less touted as an essential tool for factions.
Though I wonder if the communication spam across channels might not be detracting from the communication we might see on the forum or in game. If I witnessed, for example, 1/100th of the jabber which took place in the old XA chat in the message dump, let alone in the bar thread, let alone in character development our forum would be exploding with storytelling and information passing.
Right now forum participation is virtually considered a chore by many. I understand that I am not a shining star in this regard, chiefly due to an understanding that my writing skills are somewhere between that of a disadvantaged penguin and a boy who has served a near lethal blow to the head by a wiffle ball bat.
I don't have a group to lead around by the nose right now. But if I did I would try to test this theory to the best of my ability. Kill skype for anything other than the most basic emergency communication and do all other communication, to the point of simple questions, on the forum and see what comes of it.
That's an aspect of immersion that never even crossed my mind.
I just worked through a few minutes of speculation and I think your idea could work phenomenally well, though I can imagine some practical difficulties. I may have to implement it, or at least a compromised concept of it.
Thank you for your contribution, Dusty.
Immersion - darthbeck - 11-12-2009
' Wrote:Right now forum participation is virtually considered a chore by many. I understand that I am not a shining star in this regard, chiefly due to an understanding that my writing skills are somewhere between that of a disadvantaged penguin and a boy who has served a near lethal blow to the head by a wiffle ball bat.
I don't have a group to lead around by the nose right now. But if I did I would try to test this theory to the best of my ability. Kill skype for anything other than the most basic emergency communication and do all other communication, to the point of simple questions, on the forum and see what comes of it.
I'll agree that without skype you'd see more forum activity from some people, but you'd lose some players who dont really want to be bothered with the forums, but wouldent enjoy the game without skype.
Also, Sorry to go off topic....
But did someone say penguin?
![[Image: 1257812609770.gif]](http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu360/darthbeck/Win/1257812609770.gif)