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+--- Thread: To continue the Solaris discussion (/showthread.php?tid=32595)
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To continue the Solaris discussion - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 01-09-2010
' Wrote:You've got a fair point to be honest.
One issue with, say, cruiser solaris is that they're balanced for the medium. If you put solaris turrets that were balanced for a, say, Order Carrier on a Kusari Dessy it would be murdersauce.
If you put Solaris balanced for a Juggy on a Bretonian BS it would be equally murdersauce.
Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be well served by another half dozen turret classes to better distinguish the roles between light and heavy vessels beyond turret numbers and plant size.
Well kusari and bretonia have 'defense turrets' for their dessies, basicly a crusier version of Mk2 BS turrets.
Prehaps add them for other cruisers, and add a basic version of it too.
' Wrote:Maybe Solaris weapons need a buff in range.
Ive been saying this since early last year.
personaly I say make solaris ahve the same range as the basic turret for that class, prehaps a couple hundred meters less..
They're not overpowerd pwn sticks like they were in .84 so if a cap goes all solaris, hes basicly useless in an cap/cap fight.
To continue the Solaris discussion - Zeltak - 01-09-2010
Coming from a guy who has always been on the receiving end of a Battleship who has mounted nothing but Solarises and perhaps a mortar or two, I know they are extremely effective at their sole purpose: To destroy fighters and bombers alike, perhaps even gunboats.
Due to past experiences, not bringing up numbers or statistics, just experiences in several different fighters and bombers I do feel that in the right hands these Solaris Turrets are good as they are, meaning I don't feel they require any nerf or buff.
Now onto the issue with Solaris Cruise Turrets, yes they are "medium effective". But a Cruiser is not intended as Vape stated in the other thread, to take down Fighters or Bombers, a Cruiser is a class-ship between Gunboat and Battleships.
A battleship with full Solaris turrets is more effective against fighters and bombers, and naturally Gunboats are as well regardless of what turrets you mount on them.
Cruisers are primarily meant to take down Battleships by using a battleships firepower and the agility of a Gunboat (yes I'm aware they aren't exactly parallel with Battleships Firepower or Gunboats Agility.) They are hybrids. Thus I think Solaris Turrets serves no purpose for Cruiser-class vessels, in-fact Solaris Turrets for Cruisers should be removed and if not, kept as they are.
This last paragraph and argument can be compared to making a Bomber to take down fighters, wouldn't creating a fighter yourself be more effective? So why ask for the Bombers to become more stronger against fighters (as they were in say, 4.84) instead of purchasing an alternative, more effective ship-class?
To continue the Solaris discussion - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 01-09-2010
Cruisers are just that, cruisers.
A battleship is a big mobile platform with the realllllly bug guns.
Cruisers are your workhorse patrol caps, so their lacking any AA defences is just plain retarded.
Whats REALLY unbalanced is how some facitons have cruiser 'defence' turrets with 3.0 refire rates, those are actualy better than solaris since they fire a tad more, track better, and ahve the range to hit a target.
To continue the Solaris discussion - Thurgret - 01-09-2010
Being shot at by a siege cruiser with solarises is tricky to survive when in an Eagle.
Then again, so is being shot at by one with all primaries. The solarises just have more of a 'Agh, it's hitting me!' effect, even if I still have a couple of bars of shield left after depositing my screamer. Actually, I've never had to expend more than 4 bots in the course of a fight due to being hit by solarises. If my shield goes down, I just fly out of range.
I also bump into plenty of Stortas on my Nyx. Though weapon type hardly matters in those cases, and it's not usually me attacking them (and if it is, they tend to prioritise Pythos), so I can't comment.
Statwise, they don't seem terribly impressive. A minor range boost might be in order.
I don't fly the one cruiser I have enough to know how it goes the other way. I don't fly bombers, either.
To continue the Solaris discussion - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 01-09-2010
Well you just proved my point, your tactic against solaris is just to fly out of range.
The gun has a range not much longer than FIGHTER guns.
To continue the Solaris discussion - Bolverk - 01-09-2010
I think, something should be done with gunboat solarises. They are almost identical to most of primary turrets, speed difference between 1400/1500 is practically nonexistent and refire 5 instead of 4 doesn't make up for about 15% damage reduction.
To continue the Solaris discussion - jimmy Patterson - 01-09-2010
cruisersare a workhorse "jack of all trades master of none" but well my BC is neutered in a AA engagement ,and as im a cruiser ,guess what im doing moistly,supporting a carrier or battleship in the mid-line" slot of a battle group guess what im supporting it with,AA fire(and the odd light morter salvo or missle strike) i at least want something that has more range then a M2 .50 cal gimme a good solid 20mm or 40mm please(if you catch my drift)
To continue the Solaris discussion - Jinx - 01-09-2010
it is hard to balance such weapons as the solaris - cause the main factor to assess such a weapon is a statistical unknown.
the one factor that would be needed is the actual "to hit" chance of a ship vs. a target of the speed and numbleness of a bomber.
comparing stats is rather pointless for that matter. - and all attempts to balance the weapon is based on pure ingame experience ( which we all know differs not only from person to person, but also from emotions and situations )
of course all weapons balance is based on balance, but some are simply easier than others.
in the last thread someone compared the "damage per second" of both weapons and then stated that only one SNAC may be mounted on a bomber and up to 17 solaris can be mounted on a battleship. - only he forgot to factor that the chance for a bomber to hit a battleship is a lot greater than the chance for a battleship to hit the bomber - which then balances those weapons again.
what he also forgot was the game mechanics - which means that you can inflict like 9.000.000 damage to a bombers shields in one salvo - and it only drains the shield, no matter how great the shield is. ( and that the game doesn t really recognize hits below a specific timespan. - so if another shot hit the bomber like 0.2 seconds AFTER the shield was drained, this shot was still not damaging the hull - the game simply isn t that accurate )
and thats the main problem. - we do not know those very important factors to balance the weapons - thats why all of disco is a permanent "beta test" - and things are rebalanced all the time.
currently ( or some time ago ) we had a weapons discussion on the dev board, too. - playing around with new weapons roles, stats etc. but its simply too hard to think of something balanced when the most various ship sizes are involved - along with turret mount numbers from 8 to 18.
and lastly - feeling and emotions play a much greater role in the perceived balance than stats.
we can agree that a full solaris zoner juggernaut is quite a crappy ship. - but a bomber that was just totally owned by one in a matter of a second will still feel "unfairly treated" - and will rant against a full solaris battleship... simply cause its always easier to find unbalancing factors about the "others" than to search for what oneself might have done better.
on the same page - the battleship that cut cruise and was blown up by a swarm of bombers will ask for a rebalance, too. - meanwhile i might ask - "why didn t you cut cruise 8k before - picked your place better - and moved into the brawl on impulse ... with enough energy to open fire ( and having more time to RP ) "
the current solaris turret has flaws that we are all aware of. - the current bomber SN causes problems that we are also aware of. - but for now ... we might consider it the necessary evil. - those that are working on the balance of weapons are quite aware of most of these things - and are also trying to be as objective as possible.
To continue the Solaris discussion - jimmy Patterson - 01-09-2010
im awatre of the prblems i just cant code r anything wrth a damn so while i want to try to help i dont really have the skill t and will only screw thing sup from a a prespective the battleship for argument AA is fine on the sligltly overp[owerins side(flak ships mainly) were as cruisers are allmost completly defenceless,gunbats seem fine(dont touch my foreward gun) but cruisers need at least sme fom o a range boost
EDIT: weather its me or the pic thats my sig seems larger then the one i had or its the way the lighting is playing on it reguardless its time i call tenacity as i was gonna change it anyway was just being lazy(1st disbaneded why keep it)anyway so thanks for the kick in the arse
oooohhh tenaaaacitttyyyyy!!!!!
To continue the Solaris discussion - NonSequitor - 01-09-2010
GB solaris turrets are kind of superfluous. Chainfiring your normal GB turrets is more efficient in the areas of dps and energy consumption. No one would miss them if the GB solaris turrets disappeared.
Now if the muzzle speed was increased to 1800 m/s , it would make worthy of consideration.
I don't have any experience with cruiser solaris turrets, but I plan on testing them out. The recent range increase to 900 m isn't as bad as it might appear. I, for one, have trouble hitting bombers at 600-700 m anyway - if the bomber pilot knows what he's doing.
BS solaris turrets are a challenge to balance out amongst the plethora of different BS types. A small, maneuverable BS can use solaris turrets to devastating effect - that we know. On the other end of the spectrum, we have the gigantic BSes which cannot use the turrets to their fullest potential, due mainly to their size. However, in the middle of the BS spectrum we have those vessels that are neither small nor large. How do we classify them? That may be quite a chore.
I've suggested before that BSes get a certain type of solaris turret according to their size. Maybe we could go with 3 types of turrets, that have their respective ranges set according to BS size.