+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+---- Forum: Discovery Mod Balance (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Transports and combat (/showthread.php?tid=43127)
Transports and combat - Rudo - 07-02-2010
To start off, I'm beating a dead horse here. People like unescorted transports weak and defenseless, but it is my belief that stronger transports across the board will encourage people to fly them more and actually play the ship and the captain, rather than simply being a mute, faceless credits factory.
As it stands, a lone trader or smuggler caught outside thrusting range of a viable dock point is helpless to the demands of your typical lone gunboat, bomber or pirate transport captain. There is a system here and while it works to an extent, it's not perfect. Transport captains find that flying their lawful transport or smuggler isn't fun because simply flying the routes is dull, and once you're caught by unwanted parties your options are limited. As a transport it's not smart to get involved in a fight repelling or assaulting unwanted forces, not because you should be protecting corporate assets, but because you die. In RP you can't respond to force with force. So you have transports metagaming via the chat channel, avoiding roleplay situations because more often than not they simply yield an unfavorable result for the player.
This ultimately results in an altogether less fun play experience than say, being a pirate, mercenary or gunship captain. Which means people, unless they are blessed with a tight circle of friends who play as often as they do that are willing to fly escort and provide group backup, fly their transports only as much as they need to. Then they send the credits earned through that character in a ship that has actual roleplay options, has actual power in a situation if faced with adversity, and is actually fun to fly. Let's be honest here; most people don't play an escapist spaceship game to play a character that is cowardly and submissive, or just can't win a fight to save his life.
Trade factions as a whole are suffering due to this problem. Certain groups backed by the concentrated efforts of server veterans have periods of revival, but as a whole it's just easier and more fun to be the pirate or lawman in the classic Trader <- Pirate <- Policeman food chain.
I'm also going to mention that there have been some great efforts this version by the balance team to offer more self-defense or assault options to transports, but that there should be continued tweaking. The original transport gun revamp was put in place before bomber guns were redone, which now again places the transport in a very vulnerable spot.
The initial modest proposals offered up for discussion:
- Transport shield recharge. Can this be upped to the 1400-1600 range without needing full rebalance across the board?
- Transport ship agility. Most are too big to dodge any meaningful fire. Can they instead be given greater max turn without sacrificing turn acceleration? Most currently handle like heavy cruisers and are the same size. I would say around heavy gunboat agility as a ballpark figure for the behemoth, big dragon, ptrans and all its cousins, with the heavier varieties receiving the same multiple applied to their lower current base. A lone transport would still be at a disadvantage against gunships due to size and shields. Skilled gunboats would still be able to control a transport in a fight by keeping distance and using their smaller size to avoid most of the 600m/s heavy barrage. But the transport might actually have a real fighting chance.
- Point defense. Type 4's aren't all they can be right now, to be polite about it. Can these be redone to something more formidable?
Transports and combat - angelz - 07-02-2010
About transports flying without escorts.. It seems mainly due to the fact that there are not that many escorts around.. cos mostly there are traders and pirates.. and then again I saw a merc in dublin... he joined with pirates.
And even if you find an escort, who says he wont get killed along with you?
And when you have to choose to pay escort or pirate?
Transports and combat - Rudo - 07-02-2010
This is an attempt to remedy the above problem by giving the transport player better tools and more options. But this isn't a whine thread about how traders have it so rough.
I will have many burly men with sticks on standby to make sure it stays that way.
Transports and combat - Boss - 07-02-2010
Get a group together that enjoys closed-economy and do what I did:
We started off mining Helium in Rhinos (/restart miner, swap the CSV for a Rhino, work up to Dromedaries)
Dromedaries are freaking vicious, and with those we started hijacking people's helium mining operations.
Once we had enough, we got a Mammoth, which is a huge increase in cargo capacity (from 650 to 2200)
Now we were making a million a run for Helium. We kitted it with one shieldbuster and four hullbusters. It wasn't uber, but it put some hurt on transports.
We worked up to, in the end:
-Mammoth
-Big Dragon
-Zoner Whale
-Firefly
-Seven Dromedaries
-Four Rhinos
-One Crow
-One Roc
-One Ahoudori (Cap4)
We never used money that those ships didn't make.
Speaking of that, I intend to start it once my laptop arrives.
Smuggling is fun!
EDIT: Oh right. Er, the Big Dragon was all shieldbusters, the Firefly was all hullbusters. My Big Dragon is more than capable of making a gunboat's shield Q_Q.
The BD, the Crow, and two Dromedaries almost killed a cap6 Lib GB <3
Transports and combat - Rudo - 07-02-2010
Thing is, Boss, it's not always possible for players to get that kind of group together. No other character group is so penalized by having poor social skills.
If a pirate, mercenary, or vigilante wants to run about solo he can enjoy a bit of success while interacting with other players. Your typical lone trader or smuggler is just skittish and paranoid and avoids interaction because it so often results in him being punished. Again, that's not fun. It also leads to the 'silent trader' generalization that players who love their blue messages too much will lean on as a means of justifying borderline griefing.
The added benefit to beefier transports is that they'll fit much better with their escorts and laying down fire support if things get hairy will be an actual good option instead of running for the hills.
Also, I once killed a Cap IV Council GB in a CSF with an Eagle helping me. But that has no bearing on this discussion. :P
EDIT: But you bring up a point I wanted to touch on. Transports as they stand are actually dangerous if they outnumber their opposition, but those numbers have to be there or else. Pirate or lawman blockades tend to be in numbers as well, so that's negated.
Stronger transports would benefit all sides of the playerbase, because all (well, most) can fly transports.
Transports and combat - Unseelie - 07-02-2010
You all know what I'll say about balance and the food chain and this and that and this. So, anyway, I agree that transports should be stronger, basically for the reasons that Rudo has eloquently put forth, as well as some rp sense of escalation and pricing.
There's more than one way to skin this cat, as well.
Transports have been difficult to balance because they have a very great range, almost as large as the range of all of the capships (and even the range of battleships is hard to balance).
We can manipulate powerplants to create at least two classes from the varying transport class, without needing extra turret classes or a great deal of tweaking to the current heavies, and am more than willing to engage with a team to create better balanced transports.
Its a pew-pew game. Fighting's fun. Give traders a fight, plox?
Transports and combat - angelz - 07-02-2010
Well, faster shield regen would be really nice. Combined with maybe larger powerplant?
Transports and combat - NonSequitor - 07-02-2010
Good points, Rudo.
Maybe the transport turret rate could be increased, as well as turret refire rate. The transport Solaris could be deep-sixed entirely. Instead you could have a turret with a 4.00 refire rate, a turret with a 3.03 refire rate and pulse turrets with a 2.00 refire rate.
Transport powerplants could be more robust. At least robust enough to make a difference.
The shields are ok, imo. They shouldn't be military grade. You just need to experiment with different kinds of shield types. Hint: some of the best shields are not the ones with the most points. A rapid recharge rate can often save your ship from nasty SNAC volleys.
Transports and combat - Unseelie - 07-02-2010
' Wrote:The shields are ok, imo. They shouldn't be military grade. You just need to experiment with different kinds of shield types. Hint: some of the best shields are not the ones with the most points. A rapid recharge rate can often save your ship from nasty SNAC volleys.Mildly offtopic, but..Why shouldn't the shields be 'military grade', when the pirates have 'military grade' ships?
Whatever is the distinction for? They're certainly not cruiser grade, but they're much stronger than, for instance, the Champion shield, a piece of military hardware, so I'll assume you mean Gunboat Grade, which begs the question, why-ever not?
It feeds into Rudo's orriginal point, which is this: There's a Transport is eaten by pirates is eaten by lawmen sort of cops and robbers assumption in this portion of this game, which breaks down even when the pirates begin to encounter the lawmen, leaving the Transport class, or the Trader population, as the only portion of the game accepted as 'prey', and hapless prey, at the bottom of the food chain and meant to be eaten.
Everyone else has something they're good against, balanced against, a rock paper scissors at least among caps, and a standard of balance among fighters. Transports? They earn money.
Why are the two related? Why is what we do in this game connected to where we fall in the balance?
Transports and combat - Rudo - 07-03-2010
' Wrote:The shields are ok, imo. They shouldn't be military grade. You just need to experiment with different kinds of shield types. Hint: some of the best shields are not the ones with the most points. A rapid recharge rate can often save your ship from nasty SNAC volleys.
Anyone using a transport for offensive purposes fits a Civilian. I'm pretty sure that's what you're on about here -- the plant drain from the other two is prohibitive for anything but running.
But any bomber pilot worth their salt just uses EMP cannons on a transport shield once it's dropped, so they can just SNAC the hull. The whole concept of the shield popping back up early to save the transport was spawned in a time when bomber pulse cannons that did 3200 shield dps per cannon with no regard for shield type (as opposed to fighter pulses that takes a 20% penalty to Graviton) were still just a concept instead of standard kit.
We're also talking barghests that can SNAC a civilian transport shield down and then with a bit of recharge simply fire a nova into the exposed hull a couple seconds later, as another option.
I still think something needs to be done with those shields.