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+--- Thread: A matter of principle (/showthread.php?tid=5998)
A matter of principle - utori - 02-04-2008
I'm sorry if someone will think that this topic is unnecessary but I felt I was left with no other option since the one I was interested in posting in was locked. That decision by the moderator also affected the purpose of my post as I am now forced to widen the topic a bit.
My first concern was about a remark epyon made about new members. Am I to understand that just because I'm a new member my opinion is less worthy or my logic is flawed. If you don't agree with what someone said criticize his argument not the person. Whenever someone does the later it is usually a sign of frustration and verbal impotence.
The second issue I didn't originally intend to but am compelled to mention now is the way moderators aproach discussions on this forum or rather the way they go around them.
In the locked topic about traders among all that moderately amusing flaming was one post I felt was of utmost importance. I'm talking about the one in which chopper pointed out to something that he thought was an obvious and serious rule breach. One would expect one of the next two answers to that from the admins:
1) yes we are aware of the conflict in the rules, consider the information in the terrorists ID as valid,
we forgot to update it in the rules list
2) yes we are aware of the conflict in the rules, consider the information in the rules as valid,
we'll update the terrorist ID as soon as we can
The response was something hardly anyone would expect. Topic was locked. Did the moderator not read
choppers post or did he chose to ignore it. In any case his action can't be justified. However I won't linger any further on this cos I just used it as an illustration and as there's another topic by chopper dedicated solely to this matter.
But it was hard for this not to remind me of another admin's action in the BSG roleplay topic.
In that one among unavoidable flaming and trivial accusations there were some interesting questions raised
and some pretty reasonable suggestions made. Instead of addressing any of that admins chose to answer the stupidest remark on those 10+ pages and use that as an excuse to end the discussion. Maybe he disagreed with what some of the people were saying and waited for such an opportunity in lack of better argument. Maybe he just didn't like the guy who wrote that remark and lost his calm but in answering him that way he ignored all the others associated with him and effectively disqualified their arguments. Maybe it was something completely different but nonetheless it's hard for me to explain or justify such attitude.
As it seems to me at this point the stupider remark you make the greater are the chances of admins or
moderators feedback on it while I think it should be the other way around.
To conclude this I would kindly ask people to sustain themselves from all the "yay" and "nay" comments here cos I'm trying to keep things as clean as possible. I'd like if it would stay clear what's the question asked and what's the answer to it and also what are the comments to my criticism from the people it is
directed at.
A matter of principle - cmfalconer - 02-04-2008
1st. Well thought out and well put, +5 for credibility.
2nd. I'm sure the moderators are aware of the "loophole" if you will in the rules. They're actually a good bunch, who work very hard on tying up loose ends. That being said, chopper did break off that little nugget into a seperate thread which BulldogNK is looking into right now...aka tying up loose ends.
3rd. No, new player's opinions are not thrown out the window. But the post did start out as more of a rant/flame than anything else, and degenerated from there. There were some very interesting things put forth, i agree (and yes, i did read all the pages and posts), but for the most part, I was pretty disgusted with Trent's pretty much saying "traders all have to stop whenever I say so" attitude.
I'm a trader at heart, just branching out into Piracy (Hessian), and it's pirates like this guy that disgust me. I've run into Skyelius (sp?), Zapp, and a few others that made it a very enjoyable (if less profitable) encounter. But they earned their money (or in Zapp's case, I escaped), but they didn't say over system comms "halt 2m or die" crap.
Also there is a multitude of threads already dedicated to the "correct" way to pirate. There's a lot of debate about it, and some very interesting reads by some of the more experienced members of this community. By and large, these are the people that you might want to listen to concerning this stuff, they've seen it and been around long enough to have earned a little extra credibility.
I've seen Eppy, both in-game and on forums, and he's usually a likable fellow, but I think he was pushed in this instance, and it happens to everyone.
I hope this clears a little up for you.
c
A matter of principle - Zelot - 02-04-2008
I understand the points made here, and my post to come is not to justify not listening to new people, but more to put peoples reactions in context for you.
I myself have been here 8 months, and while I don think I'm new anymore, I'm defiantly not a veteran here. That said, every week we get posts from new members complaining about things that if they had read the rules, they would know. I can't count the times that someone uses one of their first 5(or maybe 6th) posts to complain about something they don't like. Now disco is not perfect, but the people who play here really enjoy it, and want to defend it from changing on a whim. I think the more experienced(experienced as in time on the server) players would do better with the complaints from new people, if those new people made their first posts RP posts, showed they were at least trying to fit in, and not just coming in telling the people who have played here that the way they like it is wrong.
With that said, new people who put up well thought out well articulated ideas will (hopefully) get a good response, but the "I don't like this or that" posts from new people will usually be dismissed. That is not to say anything about Utori as a player or poster, it's just when you've been here awhile, you see lots of new people complaining, and it does become easy to dismiss most of it.
For new people, I know that reason most of you post on the forums for the first time is to complain or respond to your sanction:laugh:, but I implore you, the RPing on the forum is just as important and vital to the world of disco as the in-game play. Without the RP that people do here, the game you play on the server would be just the same as any other FL server out there. The RP is what makes us diff rent. So instead of using your first posts to complain, try RPing and getting to know people alittle bit before complaining, it will probably make your experience here that much better, and people who RP get listened to more by the community.
This is not a flame, just trying to put peoples responses to new people in context for new people.
A matter of principle - Craines - 02-04-2008
Utori,
First off, wonderful post in terms of grammatical accuracy and spelling. I was pleasantly surprised to find that someone had taken the time to spell check. It is so very rare these days. Second off, welcome to Discovery (late, I'm aware, but so what? Thought that counts.) and I hope you enjoy the modification by Igiss. It's very good.
However, I feel that I must respond in some ways to your post, and if that is rude, inconsiderate, or otherwise wrong, please let me know and I shall remove this post, post-haste.
I honestly disagree that character assassination is to be seen as "verbal impotence" since sometimes, the author of the post has some bearing on the post's matter. For instance, someone who has (this is purely hypothetical, I hope you understand - it isn't at all directed at anyone) expressed hatred, disdain, et cetera for the administrative staff, moderation staff, or modification itself will often post things of a hateful, anarchist manner. To be truthful, there are some members I don't bother reading because I already know what they will say. I prefer not to think of it as elitism, as it's more... well, logical precognition, if that makes any sense.
However, I see that you said "usually", meaning that you aren't prone to making wide generalizations. Excellent! Subtle tact of that manner will go far here, I daresay.
Utori, you go on to mention our administrative staff who often lock flameful threads. Your argument, if I may be so bold as to generalize or paraphrase it, is that we should ignore the flames since there may be actual, logical thought therein. However, I wish to bring up the analog of an actual fire for your appraisal. If you're in a building in the center of a crowded, highly populated area, and it catches ablaze, would you rather the firefighters try to waste time attempting to contain the fire, or pull down the building (in this model, you wouldn't be killed by this decision) as to save the rest of the urban center?
(I'm going to take a moment to state that I am attempting to use the utmost respect in my typing, and while it may not be apparent, I'm not flaming, or at least - I'm not *trying* to flame. I merely wish to address your thought-out post with a post of similar thought. I figure I owe you that, at the very least.)
The administrators rarely speak to us lowly folk concerning the addendums, augments, changes, or otherwise amendments to the rules. They have their own little subforum that we can't see, and it is here that they frolic about, making the decisions.
(And a word. I am *not* making fun of the administrators. I consider several friends. I am merely using humour as a tool to disguise my blatant ignorance concerning the operation of the administrative staff and their methods.)
I suspect that there will soon be a change in order to alleviate the apparent stress.
Utori, in regards to your final statement, it is easier to see and respond to stupidity than to intellect. There are only five administrators, and there are a LOT of new threads made every few minutes. They can't be expected to read through all ten pages before putting a stop to the madness. It may seem extreme, but Discovery has survived because of it. I hope you'll take that into consideration?
Thank you for your time, Utori. I hope you haven't misread my post, misconstruing it into an attack. I also hope that you enjoy your time here on Discovery. If you have any questions, concerns, rants, insults, or general comments, please feel free to use my Private Messages. I'd be more than happy to answer.
Thanks again,
Harley
A matter of principle - pchwang - 02-04-2008
Quote:My first concern was about a remark epyon made about new members. Am I to understand that just because I'm a new member my opinion is less worthy or my logic is flawed. If you don't agree with what someone said criticize his argument not the person. Whenever someone does the later it is usually a sign of frustration and verbal impotence.Epyon is a good guy, mate. But for anyone who has been here for a bit, it is quite frustrating when someone who is largely unaware of server politics walks in and starts talking as if they knew what was going on. That is what ticked off Eppy, not the fact that the guy was new.
When I first got here, I did the same. Jumped in and was excited and everything, willing to prove myself. But it does not always work that way. Take it from me, someone who was once new.
And addressing your second part of the post, the admin here are all very mature and level headed people. Believe it or not, Harle is right, the admin do listen to us. They just don't say these things in the public area of the forums.
Flaming is bad, and it needs to be stopped, regardless of the contents of other posts.
A matter of principle - Eppy - 02-04-2008
Quote:My first concern was about a remark epyon made about new members. Am I to understand that just because I'm a new member my opinion is less worthy or my logic is flawed. If you don't agree with what someone said criticize his argument not the person. Whenever someone does the later it is usually a sign of frustration and verbal impotence.
I wasn't trying to trample on a new player's rights; my remark was directed at a certain breed of new players, namely those who, as Elgato so eloquently put here:
Quote:But for anyone who has been here for a bit, it is quite frustrating when someone who is largely unaware of server politics walks in and starts talking as if they knew what was going on.I am UTTERLY sick and tired of people coming on here and assuming they have it all right. Now, what I did when I was a newbie was, ask a lot of questions and try never to presume; look where it got me; I run the 66th, people know who I am and some of them actually respect me. Our friend here came in with his guns rattling and attempting to tell us that we were all idiots. He had NO idea how this community works, or, indeed, how to behave here. So, the thread (made ENTIRELY of flames) balloons at an ungodly rate and, due to the lack of an on-duty moderator, or lack of said's decision to intervene, so I, being handy, stepped in. I was ignored. So, then people started proving to me that they have never read beyond the Portal (honestly, how do you not know who the Phantoms are after two months here?) and call them on it. Seemed pretty normal to me. Then Trent comes after me, so I attempt to use my verbage' to blow his ego back to the stone age. Seems pretty normal to me, yes? If a Newbie behaves, he won't incur wrath. I didn't, and I'm nothing particularly special, so why others can't have the courtesy to do so I don't know.
A matter of principle - BULLDOGNK - 02-04-2008
utori
If you have any questions for the Admins, Please feel free to PM us All we will be happy to help you ok?
Cheers