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+--- Thread: Main discovery balance problem (/showthread.php?tid=70376)
Main discovery balance problem - Vladimir - 12-20-2011
I've just seen a post in molly's feedback, and it has a wisdom of falcon.
' Wrote:Ships in Disco rely on agility, if you won't get hit you won't die, no matter how weak your armor is. But big ships DO get hit. They should rely on armor and firepower, but can't, because they just die.
Seriously, it's all the balance problems we have here in two sentences.
And i don't even think there's a way to fix it just because some ships would still be more agile and smaller and thus, better.
But maybe i'm wrong?
Also, speaking of bombers. That's the very real problem, too.
I'm not speaking about people who get SNACed, sure, snac is good against people who joust you in fighter when you're in bomber, but the only thing you need to reliably kill a bomber with a fighter without losing a single bot is patience. You just need to fly around it in circles until it dies. It takes time, yes. That's the problem, too - people get bored shooting something for ten minutes.
I'm speaking about the general idea of bombers and fighters being too small to be reliably hit when dodging. To actually kill a dodging target (or even a target that dodges and shoots SNACs at your capships from time to time) in any reasonable time you need a lot of people on it's tail. This doesn't match the usual air/space fight where every hit matters and every second can be your last. The only bombers big enough to feel like real bombers are Fafnir and Barghest, they deal a lot of damage to caps and die relatively fast because they're big and slow, and they're the almost never used ones. Exactly for this reason.
On one hand, we kinda need bombers to fight hordes of capships who fly alone and don't care about escorts. On the other hand, escorts are helping so slow that it isn't even funny, and it's way easier to just missile spam.
So anyway. Does anybody feel like there's any other option than removing armors/bots and bats/something else?
And yes, things like mr should probably go the same way then. And missiles could actually be good again. And torps. Hey, torps were good back then, and it was fun.
Main discovery balance problem - dodike - 12-20-2011
This has been discussed many times before. Argument for high survivability is the 4 hours rule. Nobody wants to be put out action for 4 hours for doing few mistakes. Argument for the 4 hours rule is that fights are long.
See what I did there?
Main discovery balance problem - Vladimir - 12-20-2011
Good trick.
Speaking of which,
Quote:Nobody wants to be put out action for 4 hours for doing few mistakes1. I do.
2. But it happens already pretty much?
Main discovery balance problem - Warhalk - 12-20-2011
Wait for 4.86. Caps are getting all new weapons/turrets. So maybe bombers will be alot less nasty/maybe more nasty. Who knows. but this close to release why bother with this topic at all.
Main discovery balance problem - Hone - 12-20-2011
You're absolutely right Vlad, (although I dont see any sense in your "solutions) but I gotta go with warhawk here. Better wait and see what 86 brings, and then asses the balance.
Main discovery balance problem - AeternusDoleo - 12-20-2011
I've proposed in the past to speed up snub balls by halving fighter and bomber bot/bat supplies, and taking 25% off of the AU armor bonuses (meaning AU8 would be *2 armor instead of *2.5). I still feel this would be beneficial - it'd speed up snub fights by reducing folk's endurance. But as said above, 4.86 will bring a lot of balance changes already - we'll need to wait and see how the new equilibrium works out. We can always adjust it in future updates.
In short, possibly still an issue, but not going to be addressed in 4.86.
Main discovery balance problem - Vladimir - 12-20-2011
' Wrote:I've proposed in the past to speed up snub balls by halving fighter and bomber bot/bat supplies, and taking 25% off of the AU armor bonuses (meaning AU8 would be *2 armor instead of *2.5). I still feel this would be beneficial - it'd speed up snub fights by reducing folk's endurance. But as said above, 4.86 will bring a lot of balance changes already - we'll need to wait and see how the new equilibrium works out. We can always adjust it in future updates.
In short, possibly still an issue, but not going to be addressed in 4.86.
Yeah, well, i didn't hear anything about snub balanced being challenged except for some tinkering around, like buffing hornvipers, so i don't think that'll change anything much.
Unless you know something we don't.
Bombers, on the other hand... Guns or no guns, if size/agility stays same, everything does, too.
But alright, let's wait and see.
P.S. 25%? What's the point of snub armor anyway, since everybody just mounts AU8?
Halving? Not enough i swear.
Main discovery balance problem - Jamez - 12-20-2011
Armor upgrades really do need sorting out.
I have no idea why we need EIGHT(?!) versions of the armor kits. Most are a waste of space. Three would do.
Mark I - 50%, Mark II - 100%, Mark III(top-end) - 200%
Voila, simple.
Main discovery balance problem - farmerman - 12-20-2011
You could also make it so all ships acted like the vanilla ships in 4.84. One explosion and they were gone.
Of course, that isn't really a solution.
It seems things get adjusted bit by bit and may eventually fall into place. It's just that whenever something changes to balance one major flaw, a new one shows up.
Main discovery balance problem - Jack_Henderson - 12-20-2011
Vlad, perfect hit.
It's only agility that matters.
And agility is what makes evading fighters unhittable, that makes convoys die to attackers without escorts being able to dramatically rescue them (what a waste of drama potential!) and cap ship escorts go crazy because they can do nearly nothing to save their friendly caps. The exaggerated importance of agility makes the "kill one, all attack him!" reality necessary, as you never can down a retreating fighter if he goes evasive on your own.
To sum it up: hardly hittable, small targets create a whole lot of negative effect.
My solution: All models should have approximately the same size and same stats (at least when it comes to the crucial agility). Small difference (e.g. less armor, more power; or: +1 gun, - armor rating) can still make fighters feel different, but agility should be all the same for all ships of the same class.