+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+--- Thread: [request]New Capship weapon. (/showthread.php?tid=76803)
Pages:
1
2
[request]New Capship weapon. - Knjaz - 03-21-2012
Well, that idea was sitting in my mind for quite some time. I was thinking how can I use team tactics and teamwork in general to counter those nasty nova bomber swarms, that annihilate your cap<strike>gank</strike>fleet even if you take few fighters with you. I've also noticed that it's largely impossible to counter novas that are not coming directly at you, but at your teammate. Since flaks are considered "missiles", and they do not have a proper crosshair. Using, say, slowest guns (mortars/lm) and firing flak from other weapon group didn't help much as well, difference in speed is just too high.
I was often thinking how good it'd be to have a weapon with the same projectile speed as flak. Possibly a little (just little) more to compensate for the "missile launch stage", that flaks still have.
It doesn't need to deal any damage. It doesn't need to have visible projectile. All it needs is to be able to be mounted on any slot (I know such weapons exist, like those Station Turrets), and have these stats.
This is how stats of this thing would look like:
Hull damage: 0
Shield damage: 0
Range: 2000m - because novas often have 300m/s speed, and with 1k range the crosshair will appear too late. And also because it can be located at the opposing side of the ship, compared to a flak. (shouldnt affect targeting anyway, because its calculated from the center of your ship afaik?)
Speed: 350-390m/s (to compensate for "missile launch" stage of flak)
Energy consumption: 0.
Invisible projectile. (or not, if you want it that way - some "laser" like very long projectile to look like a laser targeting system. But that will require additional modelling, (at least drawing that laser), while original idea doesn't require almost anything, just create new/change existing gun and add it to bases that sell cap weaponry and freeports)
I know that it may look useless for many here, but I'd definitely try it out. As many other cap pilots out there that aim for teamwork. It can be priceless in large engagements, and you will have something to do instead of watching how your fellow capship is getting nova'ed into oblivion and waiting for your turn (and trying to reach bombers with missiles/solaris, which effective range (solaris) doesn't exceed 1k anyway)
P.S. Any feedback/answer from the Dev/Balancing team would be highly appreciated.
[request]New Capship weapon. - Stefan - 03-21-2012
Hum. I dont like the idea of putting more firepower on caps, even if thats defensive. You cant one shot caps with a nova either, and its hard already not to die with a bomber.
If you need a chance against bombers and you want teamplay, get a few friends on fighters/gunships.
The last thing we need is moar lolwuts in even harder to kill capships.
Add: ZERO energy consumption? I'll refrain to comment that.
[request]New Capship weapon. - Knjaz - 03-21-2012
' Wrote:Hum. I dont like the idea of putting more firepower on caps, even if thats defensive. You cant one shot caps with a nova either, and its hard already not to die with a bomber.
If you need a chance against bombers and you want teamplay, get a few friends on fighters/gunships.
The last thing we need is moar lolwuts with even harder to kill capships.
First of all, that thing promotes teamplay and advanced fleet tactics/formation. Something "lolwuts", as you call it, are often incapable of.
Second of all, there's indeed a problem with nova bombers in large-scale cap engagements. Sometimes, they're indeed capable of almost one-shotting a capship. Battlecruisers, for example.
<strike>Ok, I exaggerated. - two-shotting</strike> actually, no. One shotting is still possible, although hard to achieve. 1.5 shotting is definitely possible.
Fighter escort doesn't help. Hell, you all know that fighter escort doesn't always can save a trader from 1 bomber, not speaking about 10. Even if there're multiple fighters.
Third of all, it's very hard to properly balance novas towards low-scale and large-scale engagements, so they would be useful in one, but not overpowered or underpowered in another engagement. Sort of dilemma.
Thats sort of a crutch. Not an actual solution to Nova's "dilemma".
Here's enough experience on nova thing, especially closer to the end of the thread.
CLICKY.
P.S. Even harder to kill capships? From my experience, caps are easiest targets to kill in this mod, that take less time then anything else. If you bring proper guns, not in VHF of course.
In 4.85, I'd go against 8 ranseurs rather then against 8 sabres any day (well, sabres got nerfed, and caps got TS, but still)
[request]New Capship weapon. - Stefan - 03-21-2012
My point is, Caps are already strong as they are. The only weakness they have, as I see it, beside the sluggish agility, are bombers and, to a certain extent, other caps. Add flakks and bombers will lose mych of their purpose.
Im not trying to pick a fight, I just dont see reason here. Specially if theres no energy cost.
[request]New Capship weapon. - pitockm - 03-21-2012
hmm... Devs didnt make caps to be unbeatable. But you know....those nova missiles are really dangerus even in 1v1 cap/bomber.
Lets say give capships some sort of solaris pulse turret that takes Bomber energy core. Or it disable the core for 3 seconds? But not with 1 shot. Maybe 4-5 shot to disable bomber core?
And its really hard to see nova missiles coming at you...
Still its really hard to put a balance between caps and bombers...
[request]New Capship weapon. - Knjaz - 03-21-2012
' Wrote:My point is, Caps are already strong as they are. The only weakness they have, as I see it, beside the sluggish agility, are bombers and, to a certain extent, other caps. Add flakks and bombers will lose mych of their purpose.
Im not trying to pick a fight, I just dont see reason here. Specially if theres no energy cost.
I don't want to turn that into caps vs snubs discussion, but, IMHO, you're a bit wrong here.
Talking about large scale engagements. I'm lazy, so I'll just quote myself.
' Wrote:Thing is, this will only apply to the environment with low player count.(EDIT: that was originally about why fighters cant kill or prevent bombers from killing caps, but I guess it fits here as well)
In large fights, once focused, you have absolutely no time to waste on other weapon groups - you pay all of your attention towards incoming novas. and even then it's not enough, because flak range, i.e. 1000m, and with average novas speed of 250-300m/s (with ship acceleration), you'll notice the incoming crosshairs in 3-4 seconds before impact.
Imo, the core of the problem is that in bomber vs capship fights, with large amount of people involved, we have two worlds "colliding".
First world is where fights can last for hours and vessels rely on their evasive capabilities to stay alive, here player's skill matters more, then in the second.
Second world is where fights often last for mere minutes (in case of battleships) or tens of minutes (in case of cruisers vs battleships), and where vessels rely on their armor and firepower (compared to first "world) to survive. Here it's more often about tactics and organization.
What effect does this have, in game? "Agility-tanks" are capable of "tanking" significantly more damange then "Hull tanks". That becomes very noticable in large scale engagements, where concentrated firepower becomes possible. As an experienced player you definitely know the difference between SHFs and VHFs/HFs in large scale engagements. Same applies for capships, but even on larger scale.
As for self defence - with flaks you can only deter a certain amount of novas, and very little amount - due to nova's speed (300m/s from players that know what they're doing), due to camera rotation speed, due to amount of targets flying around you (and, therefore, crosshairs). When the amount of bombers exceeds certain number, you just hopelessly watch at explosions that occur per 1-2 seconds. on your ship, in really large engagements.
P.S. And I'm not even sure if my suggestion would work like intended - i.e. if it will actually help in large scale engagements. Because, you know, so much targets flying around, flaks blowing up each other, requires very good teamwork and coordinated fleet, etc.
' Wrote:Add: ZERO energy consumption? I'll refrain to comment that.
EDIT2: If you'll actually think , you'll understand, why. Guess, you didn't fly caps for quite some time?
[request]New Capship weapon. - Knjaz - 03-21-2012
' Wrote:hmm... Devs didnt make caps to be unbeatable. But you know....those nova missiles are really dangerus even in 1v1 cap/bomber.
Lets say give capships some sort of solaris pulse turret that takes Bomber energy core. Or it disable the core for 3 seconds? But not with 1 shot. Maybe 4-5 shot to disable bomber core?
And its really hard to see nova missiles coming at you...
Still its really hard to put a balance between caps and bombers...
you have to hit bomber to disable it's core. And trust me - you WONT have time in a 20+ people fight for that kind of stuff. you'll have way, way bigger problems. And besides, novas don't eat that much energy.
P.S. Since you're a new player (if it's your first account), I suggest you reading some more stuff here on forums and actually participating in large scale engaments, with large amount of caps on one side, and bombers - on another.
But this is offtopic - the thread is not about Nova experience - its just related to it. It's about the proposal of that "gun" and why it'd be a good/bad idea to implement it.
[request]New Capship weapon. - AeternusDoleo - 03-22-2012
Ever tried to simply flakspam the intended target of the novas? The push will throw the novas away well before they can hit them -if- you chainfire flaks on the friendly cap while the missile is approaching.
Bombers rape capital ships. Nova bombers are intended to be murderous against caps - while having little to no defense against fightercraft. That is working as designed. Flaks are primarily meant as a countermeasure against capital ship missiles, who'se plume and flare make them clearly visible, and snub swarms.
And station guns are not mountable to any slot. Assigning a weapon in a station or NPC ship loadout overrides the slot capabilities. You can mount anything to any hardpoint as a dev.
[request]New Capship weapon. - Knjaz - 03-22-2012
' Wrote:Ever tried to simply flakspam the intended target of the novas? The push will throw the novas away well before they can hit them -if- you chainfire flaks on the friendly cap while the missile is approaching.
Bombers rape capital ships. Nova bombers are intended to be murderous against caps - while having little to no defense against fightercraft. That is working as designed. Flaks are primarily meant as a countermeasure against capital ship missiles, who'se plume and flare make them clearly visible, and snub swarms.
Yeah, I tried. If nova is close enough to a capship when flak explodes, it very often rams into it or explodes as well, due to some reason. Dealing damage, of course. That, and the fact that bombers work in team as well, preferring to surround the targeted cap. So novas come from all directions
Well, they're murderous, but they should have some counter, something that will make annihilation of capital fleet a bit harder? Except for logging it off?
It was already mentioned few times that skills of averagely skilled fighters are not enough to prevent nova bomber from doing its job.
All "defense" they need, from fighters, is evasion skills. Not mentioning those guys that kinda freely kill fighters in jousting, with Novas. (but thats totally not the case)
EDIT:
' Wrote:Flaks are primarily meant as a countermeasure against capital ship missiles, who'se plume and flare make them clearly visible, and snub swarms.
Honestly, first time I hear about that, or even think. That could be the original intention, but in-game flaks are the only thing that elongates the life of a capship under bomber fire. Everything else is secondary. If flaks wouldn't exist, you would quickly notice it on forums - by the huge amount of feedback about 1-2 nova bombers soloing a capital ship. (and me and few other people mentioned many times, what happens once amount of bombers exceeds certain numbers, even if opposing team has numerical parity)
Missiles and their carriers aren't anywhere near the threat level of Novas (in-game, that is), in large scale engagements, due to different reasons - main of which is that capital ship is way easier to destroy then a snub vessel.
[request]New Capship weapon. - Petitioner - 03-22-2012
I get in a bomber with dual Novas.
I aim in a capital ship's general direction, and right click.
I then lazily go around in erratic circular patterns for a few seconds, rendering me immune to fighters.
The final step is "goto: step 1".
See the problem here?
Bombers should either have significantly less hull or shield capacity, or they should take additional damage from fighters, somehow. I can survive with four enemies shooting at me while I'm in a bomber, and still have time for launching novas and drinking a Coke.