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+--- Thread: RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup (/showthread.php?tid=78843)
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Trogdor - 04-23-2012
So apparently, some dynamic RP/alliances are okay, others not, according to The Right Dictator Fellow Hoodlum, Esq. and co.
Cloaked Bret liner discovers the location of 'sair base by following a transport supplying it (from what I read). Base location is now known to Bretonian authorities.
IC oppressed by Rheinland, Bretonia sympathizes with Rheinland citizens and recognizes Hessians as a group that has been working to overthrow/change their government. Hessians and Bretonia have (again, as far as I know) no reason to hate each other. One is lawful in its house, one is unlawful in its house, but it's not like, say, the 'Sairs and BHG teaming up to take on the Outcasts. Or the LN and Rogues taking on Xenos.
Hessians are allies with the Mollies, so they have a base to launch from.
'Sairs fielding a base in Bretonia is oorp anyway, their next closest base is in a heavily contested O-5. They may as well have put it right in front of Manhattan.
Human history has a long list of people who are not outright enemies joining up to fight a common enemy. Proxy wars. That was a huge list of people that all wanted this to happen, probably more than we have admins devs and mods combined. I don't see what was so outrageous about this that it deserved a sanction of the victorious party.
If either of the two points I mentioned are not the case, and bretonia and the hessians do have a good reason to be enemies, or the base location was disclosed by metagaming/oorp means, then please disregard and lock this post.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Blodo - 04-23-2012
Meh. Sairs having a base in Bretonia isn't OORP as long as they can keep it alive. They've been trying to pirate food from Cambridge for ages, with varying degree of success. Now probably have better opportunity than ever due to BAF tied up with Gallia.
BAF and Hessians got sanctioned for entering into group with each other in the same fight. That is what the server rules define as "allying", and it was an ID violation. The sanction was nothing more than a slap on the wrist anyway to remind people that following their ID is something they should pay attention to.
I find no issue in what transpired, especially since it doesn't change the in RP relation between Bretonia and Hessians (trying not to get in each others ways).
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Reverend Del - 04-23-2012
Violation of the Hessian ID. Violation of Bretonian RP, Hessian Bretonian relationship is not such that we'd invite Hessians into battle with us. If they turn up then the best way to do things would have been to actually say "Once this ids done get lost" and co-ordinate efforts in local chat. Grouping is far and away the best way to determine if an alliance is happening as it allows for secret co-ordination. Simply put if they hadn't group[ed then they wouldn't be out in Lost.
Any arguments against the group are easily met by "You could have left it if you thought it was wrong". The BAF| pilot who made the group has already had a severe dressing down for his actions.
Whilst the Hessian violation was actually an ID violation the BAF wasn't. It seemed unfair to apply an unequal penalty when the BAF| should never have sent the invite in the first place.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - ryoken - 04-23-2012
If both groups fired on abse, but never joined group with each other? then i would say foul. But they joined into a group with each other. I flew by in my Bret bomber, was invited to join, but knew it was going to end bad, and just going. People need to read ID's better, and not just what they get, but what they are not allowed to do also. I think the sanction was a good call. Nothing lost, but some time. Unless they try to cheat out of it, and suicide, which is OORP.
Edit. rev beat me to punch.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - sampankaj001 - 04-23-2012
As you said they cannot combine to attack on base, which they done & base got boomed.....
so just want to know, Is any possibility is there that PDI can have to fate of Brimstone Refinery & can be brought back....
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Reverend Del - 04-23-2012
The base would have fallen anyway, it was lost to a fight which could have happened without the group. The group is the whole issue here, nothing more.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Trogdor - 04-23-2012
' Wrote:Violation of the Hessian ID. Violation of Bretonian RP, Hessian Bretonian relationship is not such that we'd invite Hessians into battle with us. If they turn up then the best way to do things would have been to actually say "Once this ids done get lost" and co-ordinate efforts in local chat. Grouping is far and away the best way to determine if an alliance is happening as it allows for secret co-ordination. Simply put if they hadn't group[ed then they wouldn't be out in Lost.
Any arguments against the group are easily met by "You could have left it if you thought it was wrong". The BAF| pilot who made the group has already had a severe dressing down for his actions.
Whilst the Hessian violation was actually an ID violation the BAF wasn't. It seemed unfair to apply an unequal penalty when the BAF| should never have sent the invite in the first place.
Where does it say in the RM ID that you can shoot IC regardless of cargo violations? It doesn't. You guys added that event based on forum RP. You set a precedent that we would be able to dynamically alter our allegiances based on roleplay.
I think that Roleplay should trump the rules as long as there's no obvious reason 'why not'. Basing the sanction upon grouped or not grouped is, in my opinion, trivial. They were working together and you say that had they not been grouped there wouldn't have been a problem. Of course secret coordination is happening, a BiS liner found the base in the first place. You might be able to make the argument 'why would the hessians care what is happening in bretonia', but the hessians and 'sairs are bitter enemies and I think the hessians would jump at a chance to hurt them.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - sampankaj001 - 04-23-2012
So what if Brets fighting with Gallia & sairs jumps in edinberg to say the same.......
why would we loose chance to cripple the common enemy....
Edit: then it would be the top matter on forums to FR 5ed the sairs,
also I remember how much people cried on forums when that sairs & BHG thing happened to kick the OC
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Petitioner - 04-23-2012
So it's okay for Rogues and the Navy to team up to fight the Hellfire Legion as long as they don't group?
What about Outcasts and Corsairs versus the Core in Eta? The Wild and the Military versus the LWB?
If groups are an inRP device, then make it impossible to break RP. You can only group with someone with your own IFF. Until then, I see no reason to treat groups as an in-RP device.
If they were all on Teamspeak with each other, they would still be coordinating in secret, despite their characters' inRP differences. But they aren't grouped. Is that okay? If it is, what's the difference? If not, how do you plan to monitor that sort of thing? What if it's two organized groups (of unofficials, shall we say, for argument's sake) whose leaders are on non-faction characters, and are grouped with each other, monitoring the battle and issuing commands to squadron leaders through PM? That's an even more organized and most definitely OORP way to conduct a battle, but they're not grouped or visibly "allied", unless "fighting common foes" counts as allying now, regardless of group status.
If I gave you too much food for thought, be sure not to eat too quickly. You'll throw up and it'll just be unpleasant.
RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup - Omicron - 04-23-2012
The kind of punishment was so wrong. Hessians and BAF would've done same grouped or not. I never was told that groups are INRP tool which I happen to use OFTEN for simple effective communication between players. Reaction of Corsairs make me to loose any respect left I had to them. Yes I am looking at you Sails.