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+--- Thread: Zoners (/showthread.php?tid=98709)
Zoners - Duvelske - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 11:03 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: There are many loop-holes in the zoner ID and everyone exploit them one way or another, this illusion of "peacekeepers" was purposely placed to weaken it, when in truth ( as jinx said ) the zoners are way more powerful than the other factions in the region, that includes the corsairs ( wethe they like it or not, they exist purely because of zoners - INRP ) and having said all that, because zoners are individuals and are "neutral.. yeah right" they may choose who to help and who not to help ( Im reffering to indie zoners ). I fail to see why people haven't learned anything from the "omicroners" - inrp you must have a faction that is willing to standup for zoners, not the phoney balony diplomacy of hand shaking here and there and dismiss things out of hand, like " ow its a zoner killing.. lets go home" - People never tired of telling me " you wanna shoot someone? be a hessian! " - quick get out of jail card eh? Trust me I can always dock and relog with another ship but that causes division and pure metagaming. It is the other factions that need to cring under the zoners, not the other way around. Inrp if you had someone realistic he would ban any zoner-pirating ship but for some reason it is accepted as if its ok. It's not enough that inrp zoners feed crete, they must also be pirated as well and get away with it in the proceeds ( I realize thats what pirates are meant to do ) Why do you think we've created the "Zoner alliance" ? and why do you think they are upset by us? It's because unlike others we pay retribution to anyone who dares to mess with the zoners, Im sure they tear their hair out if frustration now that they can't pirate zoners freely, Anything that upsets low-minded people who exploit every loop-hole in this game is a little more joy to me and my friends.I took the liberty to make a general discussion out of it as it has nothing in my eyes to do with the ID.
I think you misunderstood a little what Jinx meant. If zoners are devided they are not strong, but UNITED they are. Its a misunderstanding i assume, we are all human after all. But being a zoner will not mean you will not be pirated by Neutral people. It would also be strange if a zoner would be able to defend 'Neutral' factions. As only hostile factions they have ATM are Gallia. (Not even to meantion OSI as it is good with Gallia and might end up bad with Rheinland.) Or well you could re-arrange the whole diplomacy of the zoners as you wish. Make it a united house with different systems. BUT it will have a LOT more enemies then. So you can hunt maybe faction X but faction X etc can hunt you as you are devided you will hunt alone against a number of gank squads. And not only on 1 place within sirius but everywhere. You will be the ants you splatter below someones feet. also i guess BHG core and i suppose plain BHG would be hostile to you ass you ally with order. do not forget the corsairs and outcasts as GMG are allies too.
RE: Zoners - Curios - 05-18-2013
zonerzonerzonerzoner.
Okay, what if we finnaly reduce the amount of zoner stations\planets and caps so the illusion of zoner power will dissapear for good?
RE: Zoners - Zen_Mechanics - 05-18-2013
The followups are to the current zoner id as a response to Ed's comments, in-geneal, i agree that zoners should be united. Oh and "Curios", do that and your fancy gank of corsairs will be out of buisness, but luckily its not up to you to decide, so deal with it.
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-18-2013
I think Zoner lore and ID's need a major revision.
To my knowledge Vanilla Zoners filled a niche they could survive on, i.e. trade with for instance the Corsairs was mutually beneficial but was something that kept Zoners afloat, and not the mighty Corsair Empire. Sure the Corsairs would suffer if Zoners pulled the plug, but this rag-tag group of traders in dromedaries could hardly break the back of an Empire that even Rheinland feared.
Now we have Zoners that in 20 years were able to design and produce an extravagant capship line, are unified by sharing the same ID, and yet unaccountable in the sense that the lore of beeing "free and independent" still stands. And at the same time the infocards regarding Zoners supplying Corsairs have been given so much weight by a very keen and very devoted Zoner player base (nothing wrong in that), that the Lore now seem to suggest that Zoners are an all-mighty entity that keep several established nations and factions alive and could end it any time they see fit.
It has to be either/or. Either Zoners are truly free and independent with ID and stringent Lore to back it up or a mighty space exploring/trading/warring coherent group with matching ID and stringent Lore.
There's too much confusion regarding what Zoners are and should be.
RE: Zoners - Jinx - 05-18-2013
you have to make a difference in what zoners are - or were.
like EVERY faction in disco ( except maybe Bundschuh, cause no one really cares for them - for some reason ) - zoners have evolved. - like many factions they have received massive shipline buffs to balance their neighbours.
zoners in vanilla can be characterized by that one unifying characteristic:
"they left the core worlds to make a new living in the rim or further away - and they wanted to avoid the houses as much as possible"
as you may notice - it says very little about what kind of people those are. - they are artists, businessmen, poor people, rich people, storeaways and military people.
zoners in vanilla can range from hardcore military people that would commit genocide without remorse ... to pacifists that would rather die than defend themselves with a weapon.
for some reason - the later has penetrated the minds of disco people - while the former appears "alien" to most players.
but that was vanilla
what are zoners today?
"zoners are diverse people that either migrate to the borderworlds/edgeworlds or are born there"
they are the offsprings of those diverse people for the most part. - they are born to the beaches of gran canaria, they are born in space on a freighter. they are born into families doing research..... and they are also born into generation ships that have military missions.
in general - we could say ... "if zoners were pacifists that do not believe in military powers - they would not build ships that are capable of installing weapons" - but they are also not stupid people ( at least not more stupid than other people ) and they also know human history...
remember how sirius was founded - they broke through the blockade to jump to the sirius sector. and they did not break through the blockade by doing sweet talk. they broke through by shooting their way to "freedom".
zoners are also not "civilians" - because civilians are only civilians as long as they do not take up another job that can be defined as non-civilian. there are zoners that are navigators, gunners, warship pilots etc.
original zoners left the houses that were in peace. they were dominated by vertical corporsates with tremendous political influence.
today - houses are at war - so one may expect a lot more people with military or war background to migrate to the zoners.
* * * *
but when does a zoner become something else?
people that say that a zoner that might act hostile - especially to a specific faction - are not real zoners ...are not entirely wrong.
if i was a zoner - and i hated the corsairs so much that i really have to exercise restraint in order NOT to engage them on sight. - i might actually really be better off with the hessians.
that is character developement.
i might not be able to keep my nice zoner gear anymore. - but i will find plenty of support with those "new friends" - more support than among zoners for sure. the hessians especially rely on migration, they don t really breed their own reinforcements like corsairs. - so hessians would be pretty happy to get a zoner who hates corsairs and also is a capable pilot or gunner - in fact... and without sarcasm, such a zoner might have a good career opportunity among hessians...
but he would not be called "zoner" anymore.
* * * *
in terms of pure RP :
if a zoner subfaction was strong enough to influence and dominate the other factions ideologically so much to drive them out of their cocoon of passiveness into an aggressive stance - - they would still be zoners. it is a matter of majorities in that case.
zoners offer such a wide variety of character developement that it almost allows anything - until it penetrates the roleplay of more limited factions - in which case - as shown - a char would rather switch factions.
why the playerbase thinks that zoners are pacifists has little to do with lore - it is some social dynamic within the community. it is a brand that has been embedded in the heads of the people - hard to remove.
edit: food for thought
the "foreign legion" kind of fits the general idea of zoners, too - people who do not fit into society or leave it for adventure or other reasons. - and one wouldn t call them pacifists.
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-18-2013
I'm not saying that Zoner lore can't evolve, far from it. I just think the evolution should be more detailed in terms of lore, diplomacy and ID.
In other lore evolution threads, between Houses for instance, it is debated whether or not Kusari has 10 Battleships or 20. Colonials can list their lore-related capital ships and their logs; it is all so detailed for each and every faction. In Zoner lore evolution, that discussion simply isn't there - Zoners just have the stuff like it was some natural law, because in-rp you needed them. And that's a shame, because it leaves a massive gap that truly can and do get exploited.
In your lore description, you argue that Zoners are not stupid people and that they of course would be arming themselves in order to survive. You forget to take into the equation just exactly how Zoners are capable of building those ships, when other factions who want the same toys just as much and for the very same logical reasons cannot. You also forget that other regional powers would respond and react to this change in Zoner attitude. In the Zoner case it's all "npnp, move along nothing to see, lol".
There seems to be a recurring problem in Zoner players being to embedded with the faction, so they only see things from within; adhering to the intrinsic logic within Zoner lore. I.e. "we needed capital ships, so we built them", "infocards say that Zoners supply Corsairs, lore evolution dictates we now support the entire Empire 20 years later", "I'm a "free and independent Zoner" I'm not accountable for the diplomatic actions of other groups and players on the same ID, however I do enjoy sharing our highly varied lineup of capital warships that took no greater cooperation or unification to design, build and maintain" etc. While it's true it's only one half of the truth; this zonerzonerzoner discussion constantly comes up because there truly is something slightly out of tune.
EDIT: To clarify I'm not at all opposed to Zoners having nice toys and plenty of bases or even great financial/trade might; far from it. I just think the logical (diplomatic) consequences to holding power should be infused in the lore and ID.
RE: Zoners - Jinx - 05-18-2013
well - to be fair - we never explored how any other factions - other than houses - were able to build those ships.
in vanilla - we have equilibrium - vanilla zoners can perfectly defend against their aggressive neighbours - cause the biggest ship class .. the VHF ... is available to them - and comparable to the other VHF ( hammerhead, titan, sabre )
in 4.82 - zoners had ONE juggernaut a psychological weapon ( pure lorewise ).. however - while outcasts had a dreadnought, too - corsairs had none. - they just got it to "even the odds" without RP - more out of gameplay reasons
also to make the mod more attractive to others.
we should not start with an accusatory "where is it from..." cause if we go down that way - we end up vanilla. almost NO factions besides houses can build capital ships - or even supertransports - any transport bigger than 275 cargo - was house mega corporation exclusive.
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-18-2013
To me, you are confusing balancing (your vanilla and disco PVP equilibrium) with lore.
Following your logic, all trading factions should have cruisers because pirates use cruisers and the Rogues should have that sweet Battleship that was on display a while back because LNS field more dreads than ever before. Inrp all factions would "want" and "need" the same ship class as those they fight; howcome they don't get the ships? Why doesn't their lore "evolve" following the logics of Zoner lore?
RE: Zoners - Jinx - 05-18-2013
there is no lore to justify the building of big ships for pretty much any edgeworld faction. - all of those big ships, no matter of zoner, corsairs, outcasts, hessians etc. popped out of nothing.
the factions do not have the resources - nither do they trade sufficiently to gain them - or even RP trade connections to be remotely able to aquire them.
so there are some parts of disco that we just have to take as they are - we cannot selectivly ask "how did that faction get this....?" cause that question cannot be answered suffiently.
also - there is not really much vanilla lore other than "a diverse group of inidividuals that left the core for various reasons" to describe zoners. - freelancer vanilla is build around the unfinished campaign. - the zoners play no role in that storyline. they are just placeholders to populate the area with NPC stuff.
edit:
also anaximander ... all house trade factions HAVE battleships. - they are operated by highly trained and well payed people. they are called the military. - i know that came across a bit sarcastic - but thats how it is.
the big trade corporations' military is the house military and the police. thats why they pay taxes. - and thats why there is no "liberty ID" ( like a zoner ID ) but a "liberty navy ID" - which is a subfaction of what would be a unified "liberty ID"
edit2:
anyway -. not really my discussion - i play incognito independent - if the official zoner factions are perfectly happy with their ID and the limitations - there is absolutely no reason for me to complain. - for me - the zoner ID offers more than enough freedom to do what i like to do.
RE: Zoners - Zen_Mechanics - 05-18-2013
I agree with jinx, If I hated corsairs that much I can always bring my RHA with me. But I don't hate corsairs, I'm not against them, however I am against those who step the zoners and expect to get away with it.
we created "Zoner Alliance" not because we want to unite the zoners ( though it sounds good ) but because we were pure trades and we have developed our groups charactarirzm and rp to be more "aggressive".
People complain about "Zoners are not aggressive" but thats completely false ( as jinx said ) and I don't have to remind you that every society must have a more "radical" group in it. The only radical thing about us is that we deploy zoner shiplines to defend zoner values and freedom and be a reminder that zoners cannot be picked without consequences. In a nutshell, if you deal with the [ZA]- if you do not respect us and if you do not accept the fact that we are as real as the sky above you, don't be surprised if you get shot. Zoners do not hold a "constitution" therefore when I say values I mean : Freedom of action, freedom of trade, freedom of expression&freedom of speech. That's why we've killed some corsairs the other day that used fp9 as a shield and pirated zoner whales later that evening. It's fine when you shoot but its a different story when we shoot you isn't it?
Edit 2 : It's as if a zoner shoot someone and you got 20 comm posts about this, complaining on and on about zoners and "zonerzonerzoner" bs, while others shower them with nobel prizes. What's wrong with an aggressive zoner? People say that "omicroners" are an ugly stain on zoners but far from it, I would bring them back anyday, with a slight different attitude towards other factions ( but the general idea is one that I look forward to create ).