' Wrote:echo - i think i ( or i thought ) - i just explained it....
the point of the cables is to show a certain purpose. - if we applied logic to the ship design .... we would create spheres, cubes, eggshapes or cylinders. - very VERY boring models - but logical.
ships are "descriptive" - they have elements that are there for the sole purpose to be "read" by people with a certain "background" and "experience".
we know planes - so many fighters look like planes, cause we KNOW that these shapes are associated with flight and speed - also with agility. - we have transports that look like trucks - cause thats what we expect a cargo hauler to look like.
i attach cables, cause they represent the idea of a somewhat improvised connection between control tower and self propelled cargo section. - it is a bit like the cabin of a modern truck - and its cargo. - you see a few cables between those two elements.
they serve no logic - they are just there. - another purpose of "exposing" such elements is - cause they look a bit less sophisticated.
liberty would "hide" most of that stuff behind a fancy chassis... but pirates do not. - that is the point.
I... what. What.
I..
Okay, that's it.
I'm done trying to understand your logic. I could accept some of your previous designs because they made some tiny amount of sense, but these?
No, this is going too far.
'Beautiful' as they may be, I'd like to kindly ask you to stop taking a crap all over Freelancer's pre-established design conventions.
Number one. Freelancer is Science Fiction. Not just plain Fiction, not Fantasy. SCIENCE Fiction, with emphasis on the Science. An important element in science fiction is plausibility. Things have to make sense IN CONTEXT. Freelancer's physics, very specifically those of it space flight mechanics, are base on displaying the universe in a cinematic way, rather than a strict realistic way, otherwise we would be dealing with Newtonian physics(And we do to some degree with engine-killing) and distances of hundreds of thousands of kilometers. But, overall, the basic things like gravity are clearly similar to those in our own universe. And, as such, ships are designed along those lines.
The 'logical' designs you mentioned, the 'spheres, cubes, eggshapes or cylinders', would all be completely ineffective in Freelancer's cinematic flight physics, compared to the existing designs, many of which vaguely resemble aircraft and wet navy vessels of the mid-twentieth century.
Number two. Ships are NOT 'descriptive', they are functional. They are designed to do their job first, and do look fancy later. You want an example of what I mean? Let's take a look at the Kusari Light fighter, Mr. Drake. It's got an engine, cockpit, weapon mounts, everything you NEED for a light fighter all compacted there in the central section. It does everything it needs to do. And then you add on the aesthetics. The fin, the Kusari wings, the paint job. It was not designed around the wings, it was designed around the concept of a fast, small, agile fighter.
And before anyone even thinks about bringing up any of the non-vanilla ships, they do not count for anything. Some of them may have had some thought put into the logic of the design, yes, but just as many didn't. Additionally, you can't set a baseline for ship design using ships that weren't part of the original.
And on the topic of 'elements needing to be "read" by people with a certain "background" and "experience"', that is not how you design anything that is supposed to be accepted by the general public.
Number three. Transports do not look like trucks because we expect cargo haulers to look like that. Trucks look like they do because it is a logical and efficient method of transporting a variety of different types of cargo. Freelancer's Transports look like they do for the exact same reason, with he open cargo spine for easy loading and unloading, just like the trailer section of most modern transport trucks. Freelancer's Trains are a separate design because while Transports have a specific number of cargo pods they can carry, Trains can be adapted by adding on additional cargo sections, just like a modern train here on Earth. (And yes, the three 'types' of Trains are the exact same ship design, just with different numbers of trailing cargo pod carriers).
On the topic of things supposedly resembling what they're named, your Pirate 'Train' looks absolutely NOTHING like a train in any way.
Number Four. Modern transport trucks are not designed to go into space. Unless they are completely useless, there is no logical reason to leave those cables exposed like that. First reason, if the shield goes down, those cables are gone. Second reason, long loose wires is a BAD THING. If they snag on any part of the ship, or something on the base the ship happens to be pulling away from, it's going to cause some serious problems. Third and probably most important reason, if pirates are smart enough to make their own bloody ship design, they're smart enough to secure those cables inside the ship. It take a hell of a lot more than an idiot to put together a ship design capable of spaceflight, much less carrying cargo in addition to simply moving itself along.
Number five. While there is no way in hell it could ever be used as a lifter with those flimsy arms, your repair ship might actually work as a repair ship, except for the fact that there is already a repair ship and that, unlike the existing one, yours has no way of securing whatever its working on in place, or securing itself to whatever it's working on. The two working arms to the single one on yours is also a huge advantage, and I can't see any reason why pirates would even bother to design their own when a perfectly capable design that they can access easily exists.
Characters Alan Markson: The Hellfire Legion's Lord Commander The Perihelion: Freeport Four's guardian, and yet much more. Missing and assumed Lost with all hands. Eric Dresmund: Junker, smuggler, thief. Last seen drunk on Beaumont Vayrn Wyard: IMG Recon pilot turned Neo-Terran Captain. Last location unknown
I'm done trying to understand your logic. I could accept some of your previous designs because they made some tiny amount of sense, but these?
No, this is going too far.
'Beautiful' as they may be, I'd like to kindly ask you to stop taking a crap all over Freelancer's pre-established design conventions.
Number one. Freelancer is Science Fiction. Not just plain Fiction, not Fantasy. SCIENCE Fiction, with emphasis on the Science. An important element in science fiction is plausibility. Things have to make sense IN CONTEXT. Freelancer's physics, very specifically those of it space flight mechanics, are base on displaying the universe in a cinematic way, rather than a strict realistic way, otherwise we would be dealing with Newtonian physics(And we do to some degree with engine-killing) and distances of hundreds of thousands of kilometers. But, overall, the basic things like gravity are clearly similar to those in our own universe. And, as such, ships are designed along those lines.
The 'logical' designs you mentioned, the 'spheres, cubes, eggshapes or cylinders', would all be completely ineffective in Freelancer's cinematic flight physics, compared to the existing designs, many of which vaguely resemble aircraft and wet navy vessels of the mid-twentieth century.
Number two. Ships are NOT 'descriptive', they are functional. They are designed to do their job first, and do look fancy later. You want an example of what I mean? Let's take a look at the Kusari Light fighter, Mr. Drake. It's got an engine, cockpit, weapon mounts, everything you NEED for a light fighter all compacted there in the central section. It does everything it needs to do. And then you add on the aesthetics. The fin, the Kusari wings, the paint job. It was not designed around the wings, it was designed around the concept of a fast, small, agile fighter.
And before anyone even thinks about bringing up any of the non-vanilla ships, they do not count for anything. Some of them may have had some thought put into the logic of the design, yes, but just as many didn't. Additionally, you can't set a baseline for ship design using ships that weren't part of the original.
And on the topic of 'elements needing to be "read" by people with a certain "background" and "experience"', that is not how you design anything that is supposed to be accepted by the general public.
Number three. Transports do not look like trucks because we expect cargo haulers to look like that. Trucks look like they do because it is a logical and efficient method of transporting a variety of different types of cargo. Freelancer's Transports look like they do for the exact same reason, with he open cargo spine for easy loading and unloading, just like the trailer section of most modern transport trucks. Freelancer's Trains are a separate design because while Transports have a specific number of cargo pods they can carry, Trains can be adapted by adding on additional cargo sections, just like a modern train here on Earth. (And yes, the three 'types' of Trains are the exact same ship design, just with different numbers of trailing cargo pod carriers).
On the topic of things supposedly resembling what they're named, your Pirate 'Train' looks absolutely NOTHING like a train in any way.
Number Four. Modern transport trucks are not designed to go into space. Unless they are completely useless, there is no logical reason to leave those cables exposed like that. First reason, if the shield goes down, those cables are gone. Second reason, long loose wires is a BAD THING. If they snag on any part of the ship, or something on the base the ship happens to be pulling away from, it's going to cause some serious problems. Third and probably most important reason, if pirates are smart enough to make their own bloody ship design, they're smart enough to secure those cables inside the ship. It take a hell of a lot more than an idiot to put together a ship design capable of spaceflight, much less carrying cargo in addition to simply moving itself along.
Number five. While there is no way in hell it could ever be used as a lifter with those flimsy arms, your repair ship might actually work as a repair ship, except for the fact that there is already a repair ship and that, unlike the existing one, yours has no way of securing whatever its working on in place, or securing itself to whatever it's working on. The two working arms to the single one on yours is also a huge advantage, and I can't see any reason why pirates would even bother to design their own when a perfectly capable design that they can access easily exists.
This is what happens when you take a game too seriously and stop having fun. They are ships that look unique and fun and piratey. They don't need to come with a tech manual describing the layout and design of each and every deck like some StarTrek ships. Freelancer has never been about perfect realism. Get over it.
' Wrote:I have never seen a Pirate Train pirating someone. The Pirate Train's Task is to carry Cargo, not to be intimidating and able to kill other Transports. That's the Pirate Transport's Task.
I find Edran Vayrn's post very reminiscent of an attitude I've long supported, that there is a theme to things, and going outside of the theme is upsetting to many people who have become used to it, and often like things to fit the theme because themes support suspension of disbelief.
The transport looks great, as just that, a transport. I don't feel that the inherent design of the pirate train needs changing or replacing, even if the model itself is not up to the task, the concept doesn't need replacing.
As far as the argument about the ship itself, I have to wonder what difference any suggestions, critiques, or ideas will make on the design. I post simply because I like having my ideas seen, and on record, and as yet, I do it at some remove from an aesthetic sense, as I am only just warming back into the game.
It is, lads, quite unfair to jump on someone because they dislike a design set forth to occupy space in a community game like this. Just because someone is volunteering their work (and we do appreciate all the work the modelers put into this game) does not mean we should accept it as is, and even if it is a brillant peice of art, it may not fit the motif we are looking for.
What I find truly disconcerting about ship threads is the scarcity of people willing to critique a design. I'm sure there are many people who look at it and think its nice, but they wouldn't fly it...and only very few of us are saying why.
I am all for others having and expressing their opinion; however, when people nit-pick about a ship design because they personally don't like one minor detail and back up their opinion with an argument relying heavily on real-world physics even after the designer has already justified the reasons for the original design, I feel it isn't entirely inappropriate to call them out.
If you don't like the cables, simply say you don't like the cables. If enough people don't like the cables, great. But arguing over the fine details of aesthetic design versus physics is stupid in a game that is not designed as a simulator.
critics are appreciated - otherwise i wouldn t try to discuss the reasons for or against a decision.
if i was true to science and fiction ... ( not that i can, cause - quite frankly, i know as much about spaceships as i do know about quantum physics, which is about zero on a scale from zero to hundred ) - but if i tried to be true to my own logic about things.... i d come up with
something like that. - those are guildships from "dune" - undocking frigates for arrakis. - now... these guildships are nearly perfect. - they are cylincrical - so they can spin around the middle axis to create artificial gravity, they are large enough so that the "space" inside - that is habitated appears to be nearly horizontal ( or at least the radius is large enough so that you don t feel like you re inside a barrel )
they are simplistic and easy. - no need for wings, no need for thrusters - those ships only go from zenith/nadir to another zenith/nadir.
so - why do shows like babylon 5 come up with ships like
... arguably - those ships "look" better - and no matte the explanation ( like being half organic or whatever ) - they defy any logic. - except : they do look the very specific way they are meant to look to cause a reaction in the viewers.
what we see, when we see a shadow crab is
- something we associate with evil
- cause it looks a bit like a spider, which many ppl dislike
- cause its black and kinda glossy or slimy
- cause it has spikes - and we all know spikes hurt
- cause its kinda skeletal - and not soft
looks describe what we are meant to see... - of course there are some people who instantly fall in love with those designs - that genuinly consider them "beautiful" in a way like a pretty flower. - but the majority will consider them manacing.
that is what i try with those ships.
even if rogues never existed in freelancer - and it was only the houses.
such a design would - i daresay - by the majority of players be considered "substandard" in terms of .. "not as advanced as liberty" - ppl would consider it as something that appears to be coming from someone who knows his craft ... and knows very well what he wants to achieve .... but art and design was not his concern.
ideas about detachable or modular design is mostly for those that want to see it. - for some it is a weak spot - for others it is a technological concept.
lastly:
here is a small image of a "union class dropship" from the BattleTech universe - a shipdesign that is almost perfect in terms of "science" and "fiction"
it simply makes sense - oddly enough - many of the battletech dropships are basicly spheres with thrusters. - thankfully - the "battlemechs" come in many more varieties.
' Wrote:here is a small image of a "union class dropship" from the BattleTech universe - a shipdesign that is almost perfect in terms of "science" and "fiction"
it simply makes sense - oddly enough - many of the battletech dropships are basicly spheres with thrusters. - thankfully - the "battlemechs" come in many more varieties.
I'm sorry, Jinx, but the Union is a sexy sexy beast.
But, yeah, your arguments do make sense in that the ships, by themselves, are not the most logical of vessels.
However, seen in the context of their respective universes, they make a lot more sense. Not perfect sense, mind you, because part of science fiction is using plausibility rather than exact logic to create the universe. It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to seem like it makes sense.
The Guildships of Dune are made as such because they, like Battletechs JumpShips, are not true starships as most would see them, but more like mobile FTL ferries. Their sole purpose is to carry other vessels within them, while the Guild Navigators use the ship's drive to 'fold' space and move the ship and everything inside it instantaneously to another point in space. There is no point in making them any more detailed than they already are.
As for the Shadow battlecrab, you have the reasons for the design down almost perfectly. It is intended to frighten others. It's supposed to be menacing. Plus, from our perspective, it's a non-human vessel, so it has a sort of exotic look to it.
That said, Babylon 5 in general leans very heavily towards the realistic side of science fiction; 'hard' sci-fi, rather than soft.
Characters Alan Markson: The Hellfire Legion's Lord Commander The Perihelion: Freeport Four's guardian, and yet much more. Missing and assumed Lost with all hands. Eric Dresmund: Junker, smuggler, thief. Last seen drunk on Beaumont Vayrn Wyard: IMG Recon pilot turned Neo-Terran Captain. Last location unknown
wtf is it with those cables, why would i have like idk cables on a boat in like the wha'd i know 33rd or so century by terran years exposed on the outside of a boat thats like totally going through space hostile and otherwise, wheres my radiation shielding on my cables, wheres the thick layer of hull that protects them from being melted by plasmafire the second shields are down, and if they aint important then why are they there in the first place omg, i dont care if its improvised even a complete retard when it comes to building somethin will know that you dont leave the delicate easy-to-mess with crap where its easiest to get messed with by whatever, aka outside
and that second thing like idk do we like use giant mechanical claws to get one thing from one point to the other in a universe where we like you know use tractor beams or such, i aint ever seen a heavy lifter haul a train cargo pod or somethin from one point or the other fyi so im like wtf is that giant delicate-as-hell lookin claw for
also windows, wtf is on with all those windows, theres tons of windows everywhere and im like wtf man why would a ship consist of so many windows if it aint a cruise liner or spacefaring bordello, i swear its like the bhg bc which whenever i see it makes me go like "ok bhg core military totally must like to enjoy the nice sights from their bunks, sights such as corsairs shooting them, noms shooting them, order shooting them, and whatever else shooting them, maybe theyre like totally havin all some sick fetishes they get brainwashed with that makes them horny when seeing theyre under fire or something because why else are there so many windows dude" but ok anyway, those things look kindaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa awkward
the ptrain looks like borderline hightech or somesuch or whatever which idk totally contrasts with the existing pirate ships and stuff, they dont look hightech, they look like floating buckets of ANGRY, but ok ok its np, onward to the other thing which judging by its windows if a flying strip-club slash bar with an engine up its rear and a claw attached to it that looks like itll break apart the second a liberator throws a nuke mine at it
so ye idk, no like, no wanna, more sturdiness, less windows, less giant fragile claw, and also more guns pls, also more red paint coz srsly that stuff dont fit any "pre-established design conventions" here at all imo
ofc you can always retex it and make it zoner, those things are ugly as sin so theyll fit right in with the other junk ye
btw: werent B5's shadow ships kinda also organic and partially you know "grown" or sth? or was that vorlons?
ps: i support the dude above me coz else i get spankin from grandpa :[
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