' Wrote:Trade lanes are used for superluminal travel within a system. Trade lanes must be entered from their origin point, usually located near key industrial, military or civilian bases or jump gates leading to other systems. The equivalent top speed when traveling through a trade lane (measured by an outsider) is around 2000 m/sec, but your ship itself is moving much slower. This is because the trade lanes work by bending space itself between the rings to make the distance shorter, and explains why a single ring cannot accelerate you - high speed travel is only possible between existing pairs of rings.
So no to which part, Echo?
No to:
' Wrote:...Lanes bend spaces making distance between each lane ring shorter...
"Trade lanes must be entered from their origin point, usually located near key industrial, military or civilian bases or jump gates leading to other systems."
This is quite clearly incorrect, as demonstrated by game mechanics and events during the SP campaign. While irrelevant to our discussion, it highlights inconsistencies that may arise in player-created lore which is placed on the Wiki and then taken as canon.
The only concrete information available is that a Trade Lane serves to accelerate a ship to (supposedly) superluminal velocities, while ignoring relativistic effects for both a ship in the Lane and an outside observer. It could be suggested that ships are not being accelerated to anything remotely near superluminal speeds in order to conserve relativity, or alternatively relativity was completely ignored due the near-impossibility of portraying its effects during the game's development.
If a Lane bends space to make the path shorter between two points, then prematurely exiting the Lane path should cause some kind of damage to the ship due to the sudden change in gravitational forces experienced by the ship's hull. Additionally, inside observers within the Lane path should observe that they are travelling at 80 m/s (the speed at which they entered), which is not the case as the instrumentation displays a rapid increase in the ship's velocity - implying that observers both inside and outside the Lane system are measuring the vessel travelling at the same speed. Furthermore, if the Lanes did bend space, then the ship within the Lane should observe a different distance between two sets of rings compared to an external observer. Once again, this is not the case.
' Wrote:If we start with the understanding that Super Alloy is used for the structural components of Gates and Lanes, and that Superconductors allow for the transmission of the energy necessary to power Gates and Lanes, then the obvious questions to explore are :
1) Where does the energy to operate Gates and Lanes come from? Batteries? On-board nuclear reactors (fission or fusion?) Dark Energy collected somehow? Etc. What sort of gadget stores, generates, or collects the energy that is then sent through the Superconductors to power the Gate or Lane.
An on-board reactor of course. The superconductors allow for the creation of the extreme magnetic fields at an existing micro jumphole, effectively widening it to create the passage way. The gate and lane structures are large enough to support a fusion generator, which I wager gets refuelled periodically by whichever house maintains the gates (or one of it's corporations).
Quote:2) How is the energy that powers Gates and Lanes deployed? What is the gadget that transforms energy into the effect we experience when we use a Jump Gate or Trade Lane? What process does that gadget perform that sends you from one star system to another, or shoves you along the Lanes from one side of the system to the other?
The large luminescant effect is due to the doppler effect taking hold while travelling at speeds faster then light (or meant to represent it anyway). The energy in the jumpgates widens an existing jumphole far enough for ship passage (gates are effectively jumphole stabilisors). The tradelanes create just a small tunnel that allows for faster travel along a straight path, but still at sublight speeds - I wager this is also due to superconductors creating a large unidirectional magnetic field, much like a magnetic coil (with the lane nodes every 8 KM working as repeaters) and ships within it using this field as a means of propulsion. It's basically a caterpillar engine (MHD drive, see Wikipedia for more info if you're interested).
Liberty discovered this technology in the "Valhalla Archives" on Manhattan not long after it's landing there. "Valhalla Research" was founded to study the data and unlock the secrets the Dom K'vosh had left behind (intended for the Nomads, but the humans got to it first). Valhalla Research worked out the engineering principles, and Monumental Engineering applied these principles in deep space engineering. Eventually these companies exported the technology to the other houses, with Interspace funding the projects and taking a tariff on lane usage before the various house governments nationalized the network).
Valhalla eventually turned into Ageira, and Monumental Engineering turned into DSE. Both companies still carry their old monniker internally (co_vr_grp and co_me_grp). It is not implausible for Gallia to have found another data archive similar to the Valhalla Archives (much more plausible then to have the Junkers steal the secrets).
Quote:Understanding the science and technology behind the way Gates and Lanes operate can then lead to the creation of commodities that are used in Gate and Lane construction. These commodities could either be gadgets themselves, like Superconductors, or they could be materials like Super Alloy.
So task 1 is to understand how the technology works, and task 2 is to create 2 new commodities that are related to the functioning of that technology. My preference is to create 1 new gadget, and 1 new material. These will complement the use of Super Alloy and Superconductors in Gate/Lane Part construction. Sirius will continue to specialize in low cost production of superior Super Alloy and Superconductor technology, while Gallia will specialize in low cost production of superior New-Gadget and New-Material production. The New-Material should probably be a new metal alloy, and will be composed of at least 2 new metal commodities that Gallia will also specialize in via GMS. The New-Gadget will also be built using at least 2 new Gallic commodities. So the task here consists of working backwards from Gate/Lane Parts to its high-tech components down to the raw materials.
Proposed chain:
Aluminium + Titanium -> Basic Alloy
Aluminium + Beryllium -> Super Alloy
Basic Alloy + Super Alloy -> Construction Frameworks (Parts of the framework for the various gates and lanes)
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
' Wrote:... The energy in the jumpgates widens an existing jumphole far enough for ship passage (gates are effectively jumphole stabilisors)...
I am under the impression that a Gate-opened wormhole does not need to exist before the Gate's construction/activation; that the Gate itself catalyses the creation of a brand new wormhole. Otherwise, if a Gate was able to open/stabilise an existing wormhole, it would imply that a Gate could direct said wormhole anywhere without the requirement of a destination point / homing signal / paired opening at which a ship arrives - since Gates are currently able to direct a wormhole at a paired Gate, and the likelihood of all the Gate links being built over existing wormholes seems simply astronomical.
' Wrote:Otherwise, if a Gate was able to open/stabilise an existing wormhole, it would imply that a Gate could direct said wormhole anywhere without the requirement of a destination point / homing signal / paired opening at which a ship arrives - since Gates are currently able to direct a wormhole at a paired Gate, and the likelihood of all the Gate links being built over existing wormholes seems simply astronomical.
And also making the ability to create gates a little less valuable.
I'm under the opinion Gates can be pointed anywhere they want them to be, but for accuracy's sake they are always pointed at an object with a large mass; such as the other gate.
This allows one gate to be built; and the construction team to be jumped through to build the other so they don't have to cart all the crap to another system (unless we argue that they are built at the same time; a la the linked gate theory), which we can assume takes quite a long time, or gates would be sort of pointless.
As I said to Echo earlier, I feel this is one of those topics better left unexplained, lest it be a point of contention for physics fans for the remainder of Discovery's existence. The 'it just works' method of explaining is weak, yes, but so are so many other things in Freelancer that we cannot change at all. Deciding how this technology works doesn't actually give any tangible benefit to the mod, and gives only a very minor benefit to the roleplay environment that it's almost not worth it for the arguments it will create.
Anyway, there's my opinion so noone can say 'but you never said anything back then!' in the future.:P
EDIT: Aet's little list of what makes what works fine without going into the pointless science of it all.
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' Wrote:Proposed chain:
Aluminium + Titanium -> Basic Alloy
Aluminium + Beryllium -> Super Alloy
Basic Alloy + Super Alloy -> Construction Frameworks (Parts of the framework for the various gates and lanes)
This is a great techonology tree for Sirius, but I need a similar one for Gallia that uses new materials and components that Gallia will mine and build. Basic Alloy, Polymers, and Hydrocarbons will be reused in Gallia, and Titanium will very likely be a new commodity. Specifically, the second tree needs a corresponding parallel tech tree in Gallia. We don't need to replace superconductors and optronics, but we need some gadgets and materials that go into Gate/Lane Parts alongside these existing commodities.
I think Superconductors is a universal application of physics, but I think Optronics could be a divergent path in the tech tree that Gallia managed to accomplish differently than Sirius did.
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speaking as someone who thinks the trading system could use a little more care from a lore/storyline standpoint. but don't get me wrong, I understand that you made a sacrifice on that side of things to better do balance and gameplay and I realize how well it works in a balance gameplay sense. I think there should be some consideration as to why Liberty can't now make these things themselves.
As a lot of Freelancer science is fictional I don't think people should get too technical with it and try to be too realistic and instead keep to Freelancer's style of fictional science.
Also I stayed away from how the power generation technology is done because there are lots of ways to get the power, it is what you do with it once you have it. And also Liberty and Gallia could have different and independent and incompatible technology as a result of regional factors.
And also I wanted to staya way from stuff that is primary technologies where possible because it doesn't have as much of a chance doing conflicts with Freelancer storyline/lore.
And also tertiary stuff and things like that would be more likely to be interchangeable.
So I feel like instead of talking about the technology and agreeing upon some kind of standard for gate and lane tech people should just be supplying ideas for commodity pairs and infocards and it would be better feedback. do up your own. so here's my bid
I took your 1 material 1 commodity philosophy to greater depth with making the sub-commodities like that as well. I did provide a back up material commodity though. didn't do that for the gadget one cause I didn't really bother doing.
Material commodity
Gist of the name -> HE Magnet Clusters/High Energy Magnets/Gate/Lane Magnets
Gist of the Infocard -
Due to the gigantic amount of energy necessary to artificially create a jump hole or even bend space, High Energy Superconducting ElectroMagnets are required to generate magnetic fields of sufficient strength. Comprised of a highly magnetic Neodymium core coupled with coils engineered from superconducting wire alloy, these magnets are capable of receiving the incredible amounts of current needed to create a magnetic field that, when paired with other specific technology, is able to warp space itself, and even create a jump hole.
Liberty was the only source in the Sirius sector of Gate/Lane Magnets by way of inclusion in their "White Boxes" until recently in 820 AS, when the factors pressuring Leeds, the chief source of materials, led to the market switching to the now available and more economically viable Gallian magnets. They are often seen being shipped to Kusari by Kishiro and Samura shipping concerns, as well as others ranging from smaller Kusari firms to enterprising Freelancers.
Material Sub-commodity 1 Gallia mainly commodity
Gist of the Name -> Neodymium
Gist of the Infocard -
Neodymium is a soft, silver colored metal of the group of elements classified as rare earth elements on ancient earth. Exceedingly rare in concentrations worth developing, it has a number of unique properties useful in industrial application, from uses in creating special glass used in high-powered solid-state lasers, to glare reduction in a common mirror. Chief among these however, is its strong magnetism. Neodymium magnets are some of the strongest known to man, with myriad applications including electric motors, microphones, turbines, and most notably, Gate/Lane Magnets.
Material Sub-commodity 2 Gallia mainly commodity
Gist of the name -> Superconducting Coils
gist of the infocard -
Superconducting alloys or compounds specially formed into coils are necessary in generating highly powerful inductance fields, the kind which are created with Gate/Lane Magnets. Differing from Ageira's Niobium-Tin version, in these coils, Vanadium is alloyed with Gallium to form Vanadium-Gallium, an intermetallic compound and effective superconductor. Vanadium, being the only ductile metal of the pair, is first formed and then the Gallium is added by way of a bonding process. The new Vanadium-Gallium coil is then specially treated and surrounded with copper shunting similar to the technology used in modern general Superconductors.
Ageira is the only other major manufacturer of these coils for use in Gate/Lane Magnets, but lost its market dominance when its main supply line for the materials its designs were built on, like Niobium and Tin from embattled Bretonia, became uneconomical due to the wars that house faces among other factors.
Alternative Sub-Commodity 3 Gallia internal commodity
in case you wanted something more basic
gist of name -> Vanadium
gist of Infocard -
Vanadium is a hard, silvery grey, ductile metal, regarded to be rare. While it is not uncommonly found in nature, it does not occur in pure form naturally and as a result is generally found in minerals, as well as in fossil fuels.
Vanadium may be used in a wide range of industrial applications, including as a component for adding strength in the creation of high grade Basic Alloys or Super Alloys. It may also be used in advanced ceramics, in heat resistant glass windows, in the creation of resilient batteries, and as an effective superconducting base when it is alloyed with Gallium, which makes it very important to modern Sirius for its application as one of the Superconducting Alloys necessary in modern Gate/Lane Magnets.
Gadget Commodity
name gist -> Phase Stabilizers
Infocard gist -
The massive amounts of energy that are necessary to induce artificial Jump Conditions to an area of completely stable space create dangerously warped space in the case of Trade Lanes, and a highly volatile Jump Hole in the case of Jump Gates. Due to the high volatility involved, dedicated Phase Stabilizers are necessary. In the case of a Jump Gate, to prevent it from switching its destination millions of times per second, which would cause anything going through it to risk materializing in the wrong place, or places.
Phase Stabilizers are just as integral in Trade Lanes to prevent catastrophic scenarios such as the space bending back in on itself, or even inadvertently pushing ships completely into subspace, as well as to quell gravitational consequences of ships exiting the field early before gradual powerdown performed by the last ring of a lane, by "dumping" some of the energy field. Ironically, Phase Stabilizers make piracy possible, because without them, there would be nothing to pirate from a disrupted lane.
Ageira was the expert in this field until only recently when Gallia's Phase Stabilizers surpassed Ageira's. Their much increased management of flux comes from Gallia's need to jump much larger objects, as well jump the much farther distance between Gallia and the rest of the Sirius Sector. As a result of that, they are now they go-to component for Ageira/DSE field crews when possible, causing friction between the two great Liberty Companies, even as Ageira's Development Division claims to be working on an even better variant which would facilitate the jumping of entire Gates for easier deployment.
Gadget Sub-commodity 1 mainly in gallia
gist of name -> Beta Jump Crystal
gist of Infocard -
This strange crystal, which combines remarkable advances in meta-materials research with a complex and bitterly secret ion-exchange process, among other unknown and rumored processes ranging from the mundane to the downright improbable, is an integral part of the technology necessary to allow for Jump Gates and Trade Lanes. In its completed state, when charged with energy, it has what can only be described as a weird effect on the space that surrounds it. The effect increases as the energy through the crystal increases.
Previously its only presence on the lanes was hidden behind the generic form of Ageira's "White Boxes" that contain it, along with other top-secret and integral gate technology. This crystal, dubbed "Beta" Jump Crystal for the purposes of identification during transport, is a lesser variant of another technology just as loosely known as "Alpha" Jump Crystal that is used for actually initiating the spatial conditions that allow for fast-travel between the stars. This variant, when incorporated into Jump Gates and Lanes, serves as part of a stabilization scheme that backs up the primary stages.
Gadget sub-commodity 2 mainly for gallia
name gist -> Ultracapacitors
info gist -
Quite the opposite of Nanocapacitors, Ultracapacitors have incredibly high energy-density. These facilitate the storage of large amounts of energy that must be drawn from quickly, as well as recharged quickly, where even high-efficiency batteries are unsuitable. In addition to their efficient charge and discharage rates, their high stability make them ideal in situations where equipment is difficult to service and must operate reliably for long periods of time.
They do need to be as regulated and controlled during charging as batteries do, meaning they can be simply charged from any energy source. All of these properties make them vital in modern ship and thruster production, as well as being the perfect solution for Trade Lanes and Jump Gates. There are still calls to replace them with batteries as, due to their low internal resistance, their extremely high discharge rate causes them to discharge rapidly when shorted, creating the spark effect seen in disrupted lanes.
so I recently started exploring Coronado. I must say you're all doing a wonderful job.
so I recently started exploring Koeln. I must say you're all doing an amazing job.
some time ago I explored Rousillon. Impressive. Particularly the music on the planet that was a nice surprise.
so I recently started exploring Omega-55. LOL... NOMADS. LOTS AND LOTS OF NOMADS. SHOOTING THINGS. I GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE. (and I was thinking, jeez I can't remember what that one was from the news. I hope I don't run into a nomad system)
recently started exploring Omega-41. what did you guys do to the star? that new effect there, that's impressive.
' Wrote:This is a great techonology tree for Sirius, but I need a similar one for Gallia that uses new materials and components that Gallia will mine and build. Basic Alloy, Polymers, and Hydrocarbons will be reused in Gallia, and Titanium will very likely be a new commodity. Specifically, the second tree needs a corresponding parallel tech tree in Gallia. We don't need to replace superconductors and optronics, but we need some gadgets and materials that go into Gate/Lane Parts alongside these existing commodities.
I think Superconductors is a universal application of physics, but I think Optronics could be a divergent path in the tech tree that Gallia managed to accomplish differently than Sirius did.
I didn't realize you wanted it all nested under Gate/Lane Components. I thought you were making a Gallian version of Gate/Lane components.
so I recently started exploring Coronado. I must say you're all doing a wonderful job.
so I recently started exploring Koeln. I must say you're all doing an amazing job.
some time ago I explored Rousillon. Impressive. Particularly the music on the planet that was a nice surprise.
so I recently started exploring Omega-55. LOL... NOMADS. LOTS AND LOTS OF NOMADS. SHOOTING THINGS. I GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE. (and I was thinking, jeez I can't remember what that one was from the news. I hope I don't run into a nomad system)
recently started exploring Omega-41. what did you guys do to the star? that new effect there, that's impressive.
' Wrote:Valhalla eventually turned into Ageira, and Monumental Engineering turned into DSE. Both companies still carry their old monniker internally (co_vr_grp and co_me_grp). It is not implausible for Gallia to have found another data archive similar to the Valhalla Archives (much more plausible then to have the Junkers steal the secrets).
ahhh so that's why that is
so I recently started exploring Coronado. I must say you're all doing a wonderful job.
so I recently started exploring Koeln. I must say you're all doing an amazing job.
some time ago I explored Rousillon. Impressive. Particularly the music on the planet that was a nice surprise.
so I recently started exploring Omega-55. LOL... NOMADS. LOTS AND LOTS OF NOMADS. SHOOTING THINGS. I GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE. (and I was thinking, jeez I can't remember what that one was from the news. I hope I don't run into a nomad system)
recently started exploring Omega-41. what did you guys do to the star? that new effect there, that's impressive.
With the talk on such over showing what the gates and like are made up of, does this mean that the possiblity of Houses with their own lane design is possible/probable?
There was someone, I dont recall who on the top of my head, who came up with those for Liberty & Kusari.
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