Vigilantes | General Information and Feedback

[Evo]

we do use it in some cases

Context.
Such cases, for example, include being away 2,1K away from a cruising ship and /scanning it rather than CDing and wasting everyone's time.

Fair enough. The issue I originally raised still stands; the criticism over the usage of the LPI ID was that it restricts you to following your jam when you can do so yourself. It adds an easily abused system that should not be able to be used.
The LPI ID is a different situation than the new group that's using a Xeno ID for a simple reason: You're doing things that are illegal for you to do and making other LPI ships unable to shoot you for it. -insert repeat of loop-holing blah blah blah here-
The LPI have a governing system and report to the government. The Xenos on the other hand, do not. The Xenos aren't a collective entity, rather a large amount of splinter cells that operate in different ways. The faction works because they attack pirates and such and don't step on the toes of XA and their business. Additionally, they don't even use Xeno bases or tech.
I don't know how else to word this for you to understand tbh, this'll be my last post. It's starting to just be beating a horse that's been long dead.

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[Laura C.]

Well, Evo already pointed it out, it seems your statements are a bit contradictory.

The choice of LPI ID in itself stinks of just wanting TLAGSNET

The accusations of using LPI ID just for TLAGSNET are pretty improper, since it has already been stated that we do use it in some cases but if we were to have the Vigilante ID back or, maybe in the future, an official faction ID, then we'd happily get rid of it. We have LPI ID just because of the bounty rules and nothing else.

There actually were some mentions about hacking tlagsnet and so on, but we decided to get rid of them and refrain from using tlagsnet altogether ever since the second lore was put together.

we do use it in some cases

Context.
Such cases, for example, include being away 2,1K away from a cruising ship and /scanning it rather than CDing and wasting everyone's time.

It seems you don´t want to admit it openly, but you are actually using TLAGSNET for checking traffic. And that´s a problem.

People get sanctioned for simply using TLAGSNET on another character and switching to a different one to use that information.

I don't think this is applicable here...?

It is very applicable here. TLAGSNET is thing only police has access to. Even militaries or intelligence services doesn´t have it. Even Lane Hackers, which by lore should have it, doesn´t have it ingame (yet).
If you want to use LPI ID because of reasons you stated here and there, it´s very strange but let´s say okay. But if you are not members of police (which as vigilantes aka simple civilians without any law enforcing authority and access to police tools you are not), you should NEVER use TLAGSNET. For nothing. If you do, you are abusing it. And excuse of "using it for convenience" won´t work.

Regarding provided example - that´s abuse. If you can´t scan ship, either start using different scanner or catch with it and scan it. Or tell ship to stop (what by inRP laws you have no authority to do, but that´s life of vigilante, enforcing laws without any authority to do it, right?) If you want to have "convenience" with TLAGSNET, become a police officer with everything what it requires and brings.

Oh and by the way

Such cases, for example, include being away 2,1K away from a cruising ship and /scanning it rather than CDing and wasting everyone's time.

Erm, that´s not wasting everyone´s time, that´s part of law enforcers roleplay. It´s RP encounter after all. Of course silent powertraders don´t like it, but players who care about RP actually like it quite often because they have opportunity to RP with somebody (if they want) during trading using something more than hailing another trader passing by the other lane. And typical stopping for check usually doesn´t take more than two or three minutes. Trader usually "waste" more time when he has to wait at jump gate when stupid NPCs are stucked and are blocking it.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Moberg]

Off topic, but you can circumvent the NPCs blocking gates by flying into the gate manually and then going into formation (F4) with the NPC that is currently in the docking process. This triggers the jumping sequence immediately if you're in the gate.

Regarding the topic, this faction is going to have the same issue that the other vigilante faction has: Most people treat ID as inRP, which has their advantages and disadvantages. If you use LPI ID people who do not read this thread are going to treat you as LPI the same that the other faction is going to be treated as Xeno, no matter what anybody says.
Maybe using this ID makes it more convenient for you to play out your role or make everything easier to set up, but at the same time you could solve lots of issues by using Freelancer ID and let [LN], LPI etc set up a bounty board for you so you have engagement rules covered. That makes it also easier for parties (Specifically law enforcement) to interact with you.

[Laura C.]

Off topic, but you can circumvent the NPCs blocking gates by flying into the gate manually and then going into formation (F4) with the NPC that is currently in the docking process. This triggers the jumping sequence immediately if you're in the gate.

Thanks for a pro tip Didn´t know that.

Regarding the topic, this faction is going to have the same issue that the other vigilante faction has: Most people treat ID as inRP, which has their advantages and disadvantages. If you use LPI ID people who do not read this thread are going to treat you as LPI the same that the other faction is going to be treated as Xeno, no matter what anybody says.
Maybe using this ID makes it more convenient for you to play out your role or make everything easier to set up, but at the same time you could solve lots of issues by using Freelancer ID and let [LN], LPI etc set up a bounty board for you so you have engagement rules covered. That makes it also easier for parties (Specifically law enforcement) to interact with you.

In my opinion if you want to play vigilante, you shoud use some unlawful ID. Vigilantes are usually people who enforce law or even "higher good" using all ways including violence and methods which are considered illegal from law point of view. That´s by the way reason why original Vigilande ID couldn´t dock on corp or police/military bases - they were outlaws in fact. Without this ID, the best would be pirate ID since it gives you same restriction and also allows you to make demands ("drop your contraband and then leave our beloved house you scum!") and destroy those who don´t comply. Of course it´s not easy because you are hunted and NPC are after you, but that´s life of vigilante. More freedom in punishing criminals is balanced by more restrictions in other things.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Fluffyball]

I was interested why Vigils do not use LSF ID then drop-rep it. I'm sure LSF ID has wider use, because - if roleplayed correctly - can even make player with such ID able to ally with The Order against Nomads. That's how I see it, in fact.

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User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=138636
Time left: (Permanent)

[Vigilantes]

You're doing things that are illegal for you to do and making other LPI ships unable to shoot you for it. -insert repeat of loop-holing blah blah blah here-

Oh my goodness, do my eyes deceive me or after twelve pages of mostly unnecessary trash-talk this is finally a piece of useful feedback?
We PMed admins about that to override the rule for LPI, haven't received any response yet though.
But in my eyes, if they want to shoot us and have a good reason for that ('u inpersonating a officer, dat not cool w us, pewpew' is not a good reason, see below). We wouldn't and won't report them for that.

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Regarding provided example - that´s abuse. If you can´t scan ship, either start using different scanner or catch with it and scan it. Or tell ship to stop (what by inRP laws you have no authority to do, but that´s life of vigilante, enforcing laws without any authority to do it, right?)

You know, I suppose my mindset is a bit different than yours but I find people who say '[name] please stop for cargo scanning' while evidently being able to scan it without problems, be it normally or with /scan, a lot more annoying than using /scan once in a blue moon to save everyone's time. I know this is technically a 'police's job' and RP and all that, but it's a piece of completely unnecessary RP that wastes everyone's time and grinds their gears.

In my opinion if you want to play vigilante, you shoud use some unlawful ID. Vigilantes are usually people who enforce law or even "higher good" using all ways including violence and methods which are considered illegal from law point of view. That´s by the way reason why original Vigilande ID couldn´t dock on corp or police/military bases - they were outlaws in fact. Without this ID, the best would be pirate ID since it gives you same restriction and also allows you to make demands ("drop your contraband and then leave our beloved house you scum!") and destroy those who don´t comply. Of course it´s not easy because you are hunted and NPC are after you, but that´s life of vigilante. More freedom in punishing criminals is balanced by more restrictions in other things.

With any kind of unlawful ID any sort of diplomacy, escorting or defence with corporations and lawful forces would be impossible, and you should note that one of the founders is also in the Navy (see third part of the lore).

Also I have a feeling that people have a bit wrong idea on vigilantism itself on Discovery but that's something I'd save myself from discussing because people might get mad and also this is not the place for such screed.

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Regarding the topic, this faction is going to have the same issue that the other vigilante faction has: Most people treat ID as inRP, which has their advantages and disadvantages. If you use LPI ID people who do not read this thread are going to treat you as LPI the same that the other faction is going to be treated as Xeno, no matter what anybody says.

As I said previously, we have a note in our showinfo bit that says our ships are not to be treated as the police and Protégé has made effort so that people know about this.

Maybe using this ID makes it more convenient for you to play out your role or make everything easier to set up, but at the same time you could solve lots of issues by using Freelancer ID and let [LN], LPI etc set up a bounty board for you so you have engagement rules covered. That makes it also easier for parties (Specifically law enforcement) to interact with you.

What's the difference from Faze then?
Also one of the very bases of this faction is not to use a bounty board because we aren't bounty hunters. Bounty rules would mean we need to document every single kill and claim bounties for it which is not particularly intuitive.

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I was interested why Vigils do not use LSF ID then drop-rep it. I'm sure LSF ID has wider use, because - if roleplayed correctly - can even make player with such ID able to ally with The Order against Nomads. That's how I see it, in fact.

First of all, because of the reason explained previously - it would be a huge hassle to set up on our current ships. Second of all, because of the same issue with people taking us for actual LSF agents.

I do agree, though, and we might consider that, despite the part about the Order being absolutely ridiculous.

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[Thyrzul]

The original Vigilante ID was meant to be used by actual vigilantes.

That's actually not correct. As an example, Xeno ID is meant to be used by actual Xenos while now it's used by some other group for a completely different reason.

Two wrongs don't make a right. A bad example is a bad excuse. Also let me remind you of the following:

Pilot carrying this ID is a Vigilante...

Oh my goodness, do my eyes deceive me or after twelve pages of unnecessary trash-talk this is finally a piece of useful feedback?

If the whole content of all of the past twelve pages is unnecessary trash-talk for you, why bother with a feedback thread then? Just feching close it already, it is obvious that feedback is not for you.

Also I have a feeling that people have a bit wrong idea on vigilantism itself on Discovery but that's something I'd save myself from discussing because people might get mad and also this is not the place for such screed.

"A vigilante (/ˌvɪdʒɪˈlænti/, /ˌvɪdʒɪˈlænteɪ/; Spanish: [bixiˈlante]; Portuguese: [viʒiˈlɐ̃t(ɨ)], [viʒiˈlɐ̃tʃi]) is a civilian who undertakes law enforcement with or without legal authority." - Wikipedia

"1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee." - The Free Dictionary

"noun
1.
a member of a vigilance committee.
2.
any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
adjective
3.
done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures:
vigilante justice." - Dictionary.com

Definition of the term "vigilante", from three different sources. The concept behind it is independent of our own opinions and ideas about it or whether it's used in Disco or outside of it. No need to discuss it, indeed.

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[Moberg]

Not every player on the server reads the forums, neither does the portion on them that didn't read this thread necessarily want/have/know to use showinfo. Even if they do, the character is going to interpret what he sees as he desires. If you carry an LPI ID, the character of those people who just don't know better are going to treat you like LPI. I have to agree with Laura here, it would be better to use an unlawful ID, since Vigilantes are people who effectively enforce the law with or without legal authority. You don't have that authority, and by enforcing the law without that authority, you commit criminal acts (theft when you demand contraband, killing people when they refuse to drop their contraband and whatnot). Law enforcement should be able to treat you like criminals if you do, but the ordinary player who may not read this thread and doesn't use showinfo might not know that you are infact, these criminals. They see your LPI ID and think that what you do is perfectly legal. And even if those persons knew that you are in fact not LPI, they can not do anything against you as that law enforcement would violate their ID rules by attacking you.

See the problem now?

[Vigilantes]

Well, as you probably know, we got warned by Garrett about our ID and we decided just to go out with a face and stop beating on a dead horse.

What's gonna happen now? Well in the very short, the faction will be disbanded. All of the chars will be untagged and either renamed to some indie LPI officers or whatever else people want to do with them.

And then? We'll see. We'll probably come back in a while with a different lore and name, with the core concept staying the same. We've had some experience with what to do and what not to do and we'll learn from it.

Kudos to everyone that roleplayed with us. You people have been huge help. Special thanks to T&T and 5th for everything you've done for us

It's all history now. Only thing I'm gonna be sad about though is that logo...

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