House, Military, Police and Intelligence IDs

[Jack_Henderson]

Personally I'm leaning toward the idea of letting lawfuls shoot red on sight (read: after RP and with RP reasons) in their ZoI, but make screenshots outside of house space inadmissible as reports of breaking the law. It's annoying that admins would need to regulate that detail, but I agree when people say that cloaked liner spying is something that needs to go. I guess best case scenario is that we return the IDs to allow enforcing laws in house space + 1 system connection, and simply institute a rule that houses cannot enforce laws based on screenshots taken outside of house space (or take it even further and say houses cannot enforce laws outside of house space unless house police/navy IDed character witnesses the law being broken). This removes the strange situation of police catching smuggler in border world and wishing him good journey as he heads toward lawful space, but also means cloaked liner screenshotters go away and corps can do their corporate warfare as long as police isn't literally right next to them watching it.

This sounds like a way of solving the real issue.
Yes, it is annoying, I totally agree.
But some factions/players have proven (and prove in here) that it is necessary and that even the draft now is not strict enough to keep them from power-gaming their influence into the territory that they should not extend it into and thus ruin the lorewise roleplay of countless factions by their overextension of power.

And jammi (once again) hits the nail. If there will be reports, there will be consequencies. Even if you enforce that house laws will not be valid in border worlds like O-7/O-3 and you get rid of legal consequencies of your actions, there still will be political consequences. Or is someone expecting that Rheinland miners will be massacred in Omega-7 by their rivals (doesn´t matter if it will be IMG or BMM) and Rheinland government will be sitting in New Berlin saying to their corporations (which are vital for its collapsing economy) "we don´t care about what´s going on there, we´re not going to help you in any way, it´s your problem, hire better security, mkay?" That would be really reasonable RP...

If you apply "political consequences" to incidents in Borderworlds, you are in direct violation of what the Admins try to achieve with this change, and I will be the first (and not the only one) to challenge it.

This change was made primarily to help Unlawful/Corporate/Quasi-lawful factions have a bit more breathing room to engage each other, without having to worry about being FR5'd or face other dire consequences from House Governments. [...]
Rebelling against the system, as was mentioned in some posts here, is not advised.
(Garret)

It would be better if those that exploited the old system to the max and castrated the roleplay of countless corps and semi-lawful factions would work with the admins now to find a middle ground and not go "This is outrageous! You restrict our rp!". Many of that player group have been restricting the rp of many more people for years, effectively making it impossible for them to do what they are supposed to do in lore (see e.g. the piracy lines in all corp and mining IDs).

So, to be constructive, I would suggest this draft that leans on what Blodo suggested:

Pilot carrying this lawful ID is member of the XXX Police / Navy who:
-Can demand contraband and levy fines within Liberty house space their ZoI, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
-Can attack ships which are in violation of Liberty laws or belong to a house or organization considered hostile by Liberty within their ZoI Liberty house space.
-Can defend allied or neutral lawful ships and bases within their Zone of Influence.
-Can escort traders within their Zone of Influence.
-Can attack ships which belong to a House considered hostile by Liberty inside their Zone of Influence.
- Can only enforce laws in the Borderworlds/non-House space when present on the server in the incident.
-Cannot ally with any unlawfuls or participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
-Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.

Zone of Influence: Liberty, systems directly bordering Liberty
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers

Or: Only give these rights to Navies, and restrict Police to House space. Navies should then not be allowed to police in-House space, which is the police's job (why would Navy hunt a smuggler and hand out fines?) It fits rp better to have the Navy take care of the BW and keep Police inside the Houses, however I know that Police factions are not really attractive, and restricting their actual space that they can act in might not be necessary if that 1 line gets added.

Comment: This would return it to the old version but kill off the "I was shot/robbed/threatened/pirated... there in the Borderworlds!! I screened it! Here! Now do something, Police!!!! Get them!!!!", which is the main problem, it seems. And seeing how some lawful players already announced that they would work around the goal of the change, it might be necessary to be that direct.

It would allow active patrolling, it would allow e.g. BAF and Sair clashes without some awkward situations (e.g. BAF not being able to engage a Sair camping the lanes), and it would likely pacify the protest of a group that rightfully claims that there is some roleplay there.

[Laura C.]

If you apply "political consequences" to incidents in Borderworlds, you are in direct violation of what the Admins try to achieve with this change, and I will be the first (and not the only one) to challenge it.

Can someone in admin green confirm that borderworld systems are now ooRP systems like Conn because everything what happens there can´t be used for any roleplay or following consequencies of players´ actions there?

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Jack_Henderson]

How about being constructive and less polemic?
Write a draft that solves the issue for you.
I know you know exactly why this was done. So... your draft is where?

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[jammi]

I honestly prefer Blodo's solution. Lawful players patrolling has never been the issue. It's how infractions of various laws are dealt with. Have it so only reports witnessed by an actual military/law enforcement players in the border systems are legit, and the problem goes away. No need to go hacking IDs up in a round-about attempt to address the wrong issue.

Jack, you say write a draft - a good initial draft would be "total rollback and then work from the ground up". I strongly disagree with doing something purely for the sake of taking action, especially when the proposed action doesn't even fix the problem it was supposed to address! All this will do is harm server gameplay and there's no two ways about that. The problem was never with the IDs. The real issue is more general and wider-encompassing.

Also, if you're implying there was a specific reason behind the decision that you and Laura were privy to / aware of, sharing it might be helpful instead of being obtusely cryptic. Help the rest of us get an understanding of what motivated a bad idea.

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News article library, feedback and content requests.

[Char Aznable]

Seems I missed the issue, now that I overthought it - Blodos solution sounds good, although in my opinion limiting the borderworlds to the Military and Intelligence factions.

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#notmyfrankfurt

[Lord Caedus]

Personally I'm leaning toward the idea of letting lawfuls shoot red on sight (read: after RP and with RP reasons) in their ZoI, but make screenshots outside of house space inadmissible as reports of breaking the law. It's annoying that admins would need to regulate that detail, but I agree when people say that cloaked liner spying is something that needs to go. I guess best case scenario is that we return the IDs to allow enforcing laws in house space + 1 system connection, and simply institute a rule that houses cannot enforce laws based on screenshots taken outside of house space (or take it even further and say houses cannot enforce laws outside of house space unless house police/navy IDed character witnesses the law being broken). This removes the strange situation of police catching smuggler in border world and wishing him good journey as he heads toward lawful space, but also means cloaked liner screenshotters go away and corps can do their corporate warfare as long as police isn't literally right next to them watching it.

This sounds like a way of solving the real issue.
Yes, it is annoying, I totally agree.
But some factions/players have proven (and prove in here) that it is necessary and that even the draft now is not strict enough to keep them from power-gaming their influence into the territory that they should not extend it into and thus ruin the lorewise roleplay of countless factions by their overextension of power.

And jammi (once again) hits the nail. If there will be reports, there will be consequencies. Even if you enforce that house laws will not be valid in border worlds like O-7/O-3 and you get rid of legal consequencies of your actions, there still will be political consequences. Or is someone expecting that Rheinland miners will be massacred in Omega-7 by their rivals (doesn´t matter if it will be IMG or BMM) and Rheinland government will be sitting in New Berlin saying to their corporations (which are vital for its collapsing economy) "we don´t care about what´s going on there, we´re not going to help you in any way, it´s your problem, hire better security, mkay?" That would be really reasonable RP...

If you apply "political consequences" to incidents in Borderworlds, you are in direct violation of what the Admins try to achieve with this change, and I will be the first (and not the only one) to challenge it.

This change was made primarily to help Unlawful/Corporate/Quasi-lawful factions have a bit more breathing room to engage each other, without having to worry about being FR5'd or face other dire consequences from House Governments. [...]
Rebelling against the system, as was mentioned in some posts here, is not advised.
(Garret)

It would be better if those that exploited the old system to the max and castrated the roleplay of countless corps and semi-lawful factions would work with the admins now to find a middle ground and not go "This is outrageous! You restrict our rp!". Many of that player group have been restricting the rp of many more people for years, effectively making it impossible for them to do what they are supposed to do in lore (see e.g. the piracy lines in all corp and mining IDs).

So, to be constructive, I would suggest this draft that leans on what aerelm suggested:

Pilot carrying this lawful ID is member of the XXX Police / Navy who:
-Can demand contraband and levy fines within Liberty house space their ZoI, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
-Can attack ships which are in violation of Liberty laws or belong to a house or organization considered hostile by Liberty within their ZoI Liberty house space.
-Can defend allied or neutral lawful ships and bases within their Zone of Influence.
-Can escort traders within their Zone of Influence.
-Can attack ships which belong to a House considered hostile by Liberty inside their Zone of Influence.
- Can only enforce laws in the Borderworlds/non-House space when present on the server in the incident.
-Cannot ally with any unlawfuls or participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
-Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo.

Zone of Influence: Liberty, systems directly bordering Liberty
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers

Or: Only give these rights to Navies, and restrict Police to House space. Navies should then not be allowed to police in-House space, which is the police's job (why would Navy hunt a smuggler and hand out fines?) It fits rp better to have the Navy take care of the BW and keep Police inside the Houses, however I know that Police factions are not really attractive, and restricting their actual space that they can act in might not be necessary if that 1 line gets added.

Comment: This would return it to the old version but kill off the "I was shot/robbed/threatened/pirated... there in the Borderworlds!! I screened it! Here! Now do something, Police!!!! Get them!!!!", which is the main problem, it seems. And seeing how some lawful players already announced that they would work around the goal of the change, it might be necessary to be that direct.

It would allow active patrolling, it would allow e.g. BAF and Sair clashes without some awkward situations (e.g. BAF not being able to engage a Sair camping the lanes), and it would likely pacify the protest of a group that rightfully claims that there is some roleplay there.

Yeah, all these things look fine to me. Quick side note, a lot of houses have areas within them that would nominally be patrolled by police factions, but are actually patrolled by the navies. Good examples are the two lanes to the Magellan gate in California, which is inRP patrolled by the Liberty Navy. Again in Liberty, this applies to the lanes crossing the Independent Worlds between Liberty, Kusari, and Bretonia, where the lanes on the same side as the gates into house space are patrolled by that house's navy.

I understand that the general idea behind a lot of these changes was to make it possible to have corporate warfare in the Border Worlds, but this reasoning doesn't really apply to Liberty as much, since Libertonian corporations don't really have to compete with corporations from other houses, and they don't have any competition within Liberty either. I'm not trying to say that Liberty shouldn't have the same ID as the other three affected houses, but perhaps those houses just need an extra line regarding corporate warfare, and them generally ignoring it?

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[Jack_Henderson]

Ye. My suggestion actually is based on Blodo's (not aerelm's) suggestion. Edited it in #132.

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+ IMG| DISCORD: https://discord.gg/TWrGWjp
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[Doria]

Well, in my personal opinion, the house "claims" on borderworlds was always ridiculous. And detrimental to gameplay and RP. Borderworlds were originaly designed to be 'buffer' systems between houses, and giving more freedom of action to quasi-lawfuls and unlawfuls.

In my opinion I think polices should be restricted to house space, and militaries should be allowed to engage hostiles in the borderworlds, but not to enforce house law, just shoot militaries and corps they are at war with.

[WesternPeregrine]

But police factions were already restricted to house space no? By their zoi? They didn't have any "bordering systems of house x" in their ID's before...

No LPI or KSP would go "police" Kepler or Galileo, since it was out of their jurisdiction, and Navies would only go there if there were evident reports of Rogues (or Blood Dragons) clogging the lanes.

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Kusari Former Mastermind

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[Laura C.]

I honestly prefer Blodo's solution. Lawful players patrolling has never been the issue. It's how infractions of various laws are dealt with. Have it so only reports witnessed by an actual military/law enforcement players in the border systems are legit, and the problem goes away. No need to go hacking IDs up in a round-about attempt to address the wrong issue.

Jack, you say write a draft - a good initial draft would be "total rollback and then work from the ground up". I strongly disagree with doing something purely for the sake of taking action, especially when the proposed action doesn't even fix the problem it was supposed to address! All this will do is harm server gameplay and there's no two ways about that. The problem was never with the IDs. The real issue is more general and wider-encompassing.

What more can I say than jammi for admin? It this change would be discussed BEFORE implementing, it would save lot of drama and the best solution would be more easy to find as we can see in this thread. Also, here is your answer for any drafts, Jack.

Also, if you're implying there was a specific reason behind the decision that you and Laura were privy to / aware of, sharing it might be helpful instead of being obtusely cryptic. Help the rest of us get an understanding of what motivated a bad idea.

Basically I´m the one of those who are castrating RP of all corporations for ages (to quote what was said before) because there was ONE SINGLE incident some time ago when IMG got punished for shooting unlawful bounty hunter in Omega-7 next to battleship Schwerin. He was hunting them only outside Rheinland so not criminal in the house. They attacked him, he reported it. I refused to ignore it ooRPly (as some people suggested) as well as ignore it inRPly (as some other people suggested), made investigation and issued a fine. Now I´m marked as one of the major culprits of this change because of this and because I´m obviously ruining and raping RP of others when I had (and still have) that stupid idea that actions made inRP should have consequencies. What a fool I am...

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.