House, Military, Police and Intelligence IDs

[Highland Laddie]

The problem with people avoiding this coveted "corporate piracy" is that they want it both ways - harassing, robbing, and shooting their competitors without the possible RP consequence of that corporation's house wanting to protect their interests, just flying past that same faction's bases in their house space as if nothing happened.

If you're deathly afraid you'll maybe get a little red stain on your crisp green repsheet from shooting someone with connections, perhaps it's more a matter of hardening up and facing potential in-game consequences than seeking admin intervention to implement a broad restriction on RP distress calls and a response by law enforcement when that makes perfect sense as well. Not all house law enforcement chooses to pursue it, which is nice and can make for some underhanded fun when all parties consent, but when they don't consent, what were you expecting from robbing and killing people? It's a diplomatic risk that you've got to account for as a smart corporation with an image to maintain and relationships to foster in your cost-benefit analysis. Players criticize factions that are friendly/neutral to a majority of Sirius all the time despite their actions, so why are they trying to get the same treatment?

Get creative if it's too much for your delicate repsheet to handle: attack them by proxies and stir up more factions' activity, make keeping their mouth shut part of the demand, give kickbacks to corrupt cops, make your services to that house more vital than their own corps' in some way. There are countless possibilities. Also, if people were friendlier with each other OORP, they could come to better general agreements to piracy (without being too pitched and artificial) without anyone crying, but there are far too many egos invested in pixels.

You are automatically assuming that a corporation WOULD report all of this corporate warfare to the authorities instead of taking matters into their own hands first. Maybe with pirates, sure, but when you're doing clandestine, underhanded dealing in the corporate world, you don't go crying to the cops when something goes wrong. Real investigations into the matter would more than likely reveal your own dirty laundry than your rivals.

Secondly, in regard to using proxies, I would prefer to promote my own faction's activity and not use someone else to do all my dirty work, especially when I should be ALLOWED to do my dirty work in an area that's not really protected by the law.

As for OORP relations, I'm ironically on 'friendlier" terms with Bowex players than I am with my allies in IMG, so think that one through

[Lythrilux]

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[Stoner_Steve]

I feel like this thread got derailed again

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[Chuba]

Worst change for these ids 0/10

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[Zed26]

You are automatically assuming that a corporation WOULD report all of this corporate warfare to the authorities instead of taking matters into their own hands first. Maybe with pirates, sure, but when you're doing clandestine, underhanded dealing in the corporate world, you don't go crying to the cops when something goes wrong. Real investigations into the matter would more than likely reveal your own dirty laundry than your rivals.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Not automatically assuming that at all. I'm saying that a lot of other people are paralyzed fearing they'll always be hit by a FR5, so they request rules for protection rather than letting things play out via roleplay and accepting the consequences as other players decide. Some corps have a lot to hide so they quietly counterattack. Some lack security, but greased the right palms and are pals with the authorities, so some base administrators have been notified to refuse access to the competitors. Maybe one house's stance is to let free trade (and piracy) reign and another's is to guard what few resources they have by favoring their own corporations. Personally? I'd work it out and try to see what kind of fun events/encounters we could cook up, but it's ultimately up to the players involved to decide how they want to lead, maintain their image and cultivate relationships, not assume they'd automatically pass or fail. I'm for things happening naturally, rather than railroading an interaction by making one of many equally believable decisions result in sanctions.

I should be ALLOWED to do my dirty work in an area that's not really protected by the law.

Personal preference, of course. Not saying you can't do your dirty work, but it's still dirty work.

As for OORP relations, I'm ironically on 'friendlier" terms with Bowex players than I am with my allies in IMG, so think that one through

Take it easy. I wasn't calling you out specifically, as I pay enough attention to the chats to have heard that you're one of the examples of an inter-corp conflict that mostly works. That's fine. We could use more of that, because until players either learn things will be better by treating others in the community like people - or get pared down to those who do - the rules will be an endless back and forth of changes favoring fun for one group at the expense of another based on their volume of complaints, continuing the cycle of player burnout, staff burnout, and decline.

Blodo's suggestion makes sense. We recently had all the factions submit their IDs to simplify the language, but the current changes make things even more confusing/frustrating.

[Highland Laddie]

... so they request rules for protection rather than letting things play out via roleplay and accepting the consequences as other players decide. Some corps have a lot to hide so they quietly counterattack. Some lack security, but greased the right palms and are pals with the authorities, so some base administrators have been notified to refuse access to the competitors. Maybe one house's stance is to let free trade (and piracy) reign and another's is to guard what few resources they have by favoring their own corporations. Personally? I'd work it out and try to see what kind of fun events/encounters we could cook up, but it's ultimately up to the players involved to decide how they want to lead, maintain their image and cultivate relationships, not assume they'd automatically pass or fail. I'm for things happening naturally, rather than railroading an interaction by making one of many equally believable decisions result in sanctions.

Hi Zed. I don't disagree with anything you said there. I just think all of that could/should happen without the axe of an FR5 also hanging over a faction's head, or at least certainly as a very very very very very very very last resort.....as in..."you're literally almost as bad as Bass Hunters in your in-game choices and should probably be kicked from the server, but we'll do this first" kinda thing. These things could all be done in-game via the player-player interactions, and not simply by making planets and stations non-dockable to a ship or group. As I also said, this new /nodock command may help make the FR5 not even needed in a lot of these cases, and PoBs can already prevent players/groups from docking with their lists.

Take it easy. I wasn't calling you out specifically, ...

No, that's fine. I wasn't taking it as a personal negative. Just providing my own example/experience of how you can actually disassociate oorp and inRP relationships. It's cool.

[Fluffyball]

I approve of this change as it for example provides the Bunters with a viable reason for existence, although I'm still of the opinion that some exceptions are to be made (Tau-29 (at least around Nago), Omega-3 (at least between the Gate and Sprague), Omega-7 etc. Those systems, where a notable presence of Military and police makes sense.

A viable reason for Bunters to exist would be their involvement in corporate piracy, (...)

That's a pretty bad idea, since Bounty Hunters aren't pirates but people making justice where police cannot. Such organization, which takes resocialized criminals into their ranks, turning onto lawful targets would be kicked pretty fast from house space and treated like mere pirates.

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[Thyrzul]

Portraying yourself as the victim here is pretty funny

The hypocrisy here is quite amusing, really. This whole drama made me curious and reviewed what the Wagner incident was actually about. Founding out how easily your goons were able to get baited into a law breach gave me a good chuckle, and yet you still think RFP overstepped their bounds by sanctioning IMG for an assault in the very vicinity of a Rheinland Military Battleship on a person you insist to be a criminal, yet were still unable to provide evidence about him having any criminal record within Rheinland. The only thing that could be wrong on the RFP side is the excessive amount of fine to cover those nonsense claims of Wagner, but that's all. You failed hard there and after months you still cannot accept that falling god damn hard for a trick like that was the fault of your faction members, big time.

I do not think you are anywhere near objective and bias-free in this debate, maybe it's time for you to eject here and now.

The problem with people avoiding this coveted "corporate piracy" is that they want it both ways - harassing, robbing, and shooting their competitors without the possible RP consequence of that corporation's house wanting to protect their interests, just flying past that same faction's bases in their house space as if nothing happened.

If you're deathly afraid you'll maybe get a little red stain on your crisp green repsheet from shooting someone with connections, perhaps it's more a matter of hardening up and facing potential in-game consequences than seeking admin intervention to implement a broad restriction on RP distress calls and a response by law enforcement when that makes perfect sense as well. Not all house law enforcement chooses to pursue it, which is nice and can make for some underhanded fun when all parties consent, but when they don't consent, what were you expecting from robbing and killing people? It's a diplomatic risk that you've got to account for as a smart corporation with an image to maintain and relationships to foster in your cost-benefit analysis. Players criticize factions that are friendly/neutral to a majority of Sirius all the time despite their actions, so why are they trying to get the same treatment?

Pretty much what I've been trying to suggest, but of course there will always be stubborn elements in this community.

Get creative if it's too much for your delicate repsheet to handle: attack them by proxies and stir up more factions' activity, make keeping their mouth shut part of the demand, give kickbacks to corrupt cops, make your services to that house more vital than their own corps' in some way. There are countless possibilities. Also, if people were friendlier with each other OORP, they could come to better general agreements to piracy (without being too pitched and artificial) without anyone crying, but there are far too many egos invested in pixels.

Actually one of these got me some ideas. There can be a lot of reasons thought of quite easily why would an FR5 be detrimental for either the house or the corporations.

In the case of corporations rivaling from the same house, by constantly destroying eachother's assets, they are both harming house economy, thus both would have to face the same negative consequences should their rivalry become revealed. -> No reports at all.

In the case of corporations rivaling from different houses, appeals could be made towards the sanctioning house, because if you harm their economy, but pay them back part of it, it's somewhat of a compensation. Arbitrary hypothetical scenario: IMG keeps dominating Kruger over a field but sells 1/3 of that ore to Rheinland for discount price, or for cheaper than Kruger would, that could be a reason for Rheinland to ignore Kruger's qq. -> No FR5s in the end.

Bamm, you don't have to fear from FR5s, because somebody else thought it out for you how to avoid them, and now everybody's happy... except those who suffer from these ID changes now because some others couldn't think for themselves before...

I just think all of that could/should happen without the axe of an FR5 also hanging over a faction's head, or at least certainly as a very very very very very very very last resort.....as in..."you're literally almost as bad as Bass Hunters in your in-game choices and should probably be kicked from the server, but we'll do this first" kinda thing. These things could all be done in-game via the player-player interactions, and not simply by making planets and stations non-dockable to a ship or group. As I also said, this new /nodock command may help make the FR5 not even needed in a lot of these cases, and PoBs can already prevent players/groups from docking with their lists.

From feedback from a lot of people throughout this thread as well as OFL skype chat I get the impression that - except for the /nodock command part - this has been the case for quite long already. Not "could/should", but "has been".

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[Black Jack]

So as far as i unredstood this:

About Bretonian Army

1. -Can demand contraband and levy fines within Bretonia house space, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
(So they can do this only in house space, not in borders)

2. -Can attack ships which are in violation of Bretonia laws or belong to a house or organization considered hostile by Bretonia within Bretonia house space.
(Can attack hostiles only inside of house space)

3. -Can defend allied or neutral lawful ships and bases within their Zone of Influence.
(Can defend neutral ships in ZOI)

4. -Can escort traders within their Zone of Influence.
(Can escort in ZOI)

5. -Can attack ships which belong to a House considered hostile by Bretonia inside their Zone of Influence.
(and again like in 2. he can attack all hostiles, but in ZOI. That means Omega 3 too? I mean Borders)

I don't get 2 and 5. They are same, but 1 say that you can attack hostiles inside of House space and another say that you can attack hostiles in ZOI. Only i can't see any sense in this or i don't get something?

[Lythrilux]

BAF can no longer engage non-house hostiles and enforce their laws in the border systems in their ZoI (Magellan, Cortez, Omega-3). So they can no longer engage anything that isn't GRN basically.

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