K'hara and Indie Nomad ID changes

[Durandal]

I didn't mind the no RP engaging at all, but the buttcloaking had to go. So long as that's gone I'm happy, but you personally won't see me complain if I got shot at by a nom doing proper spooky mean alien RP.

[Captain_Dickärd]

Just for clarity, this area is being discussed but the silent engaging was not the root of the complaints, in many situations this fits.

The root problem was the decloaking and instakilling without anybody having a chance to react.If this happens with other ID's and a complaint is made then the sanction can use rule 3.1.

Is it really lack of chance to react, or loss of awareness due to playing in silence or alternatively, lack of awareness?
Sure, in my opinion the Nomad RP of kill everything has been overused recently but saying the victims didn't have a chance to react is denial in its purest form. If you are still standing around the moment the Nomad has recharged energy and uncloaks, you deserve the death. I have died to an attack like that once, now I have the game sound louder and my music more silent. Have I died to a cloak attack since then? No.

Though I still died in the fight that commenced (

This hits the nail on the head.

That cloak sound is impossible to miss if you're actually paying attention to the game. And if the cloak is the issue, why was a faction ID nerfed instead of the cloak tweaked? It seems like Nomads were specifically nerfed only to satisfy people who refuse to use their sound.

It seems like a snap change based on complaints, without an in-depth look at the real issue (People not paying attention).

Wilde was proposed to be included in this change, but the Admin Team decided it'd be unfair for that faction, since it wasn't abusing their cloaks lately.

So nomads are being nerfed, for using what they were given?

[Binski]

Nah, what he meant is that ambushes via cloaks now give even more reaction time to the victims than there already is. Considering the sanction cases of "sufficient time to react" and the cloak noise you hear when a Nomad is approaching, human players now have at least 30 seconds of reaction time before the Nomad can attack. So offensive uses of the Nomad cloak have been nerfed heavily while the defensive uses are already at an extreme low due to the charge time. The only thing the Nomad cloak is good at then would be stalking on people from a distance (cloak disruptors) or avoiding them altogether, which would make them less useful overall than human ones. Kind of strange for an advanced civilization that mastered this technology and makes the equipment more situational than it already was.

I very much agree. This is why I'm supporting what is hopefully a coming change to the CD situation. Also, if this 'no engagement rp while cloaked' is extended to everyone, cloaks in general suffer the last nerf they really can. What kind of a game are we playing if a cloak can't be used for ambush, nor escape? Which seems to lead to simple aversion, especially if we can't use them for hunting.

While the change is alright, it'd be better to allow them to RP while cloaked. This essentially ruins the whole cloak ambush plan, as now the nomad has to uncloak, RP first (which is gonna take time as nomspeak isn't as easy), and then shoot, giving way too much time to the target to react. Nomads are supposed to be a constant threat and force you to always be on your guard while they're in the same system. Now, even if you hear the cloaking sound you can just sit afk and wait for him to uncloak because you know he can't do anything to you.

Edit: My point was if all other IDs can RP while cloaked (for at least 30 seconds, giving the target sufficient time) and then uncloak + open fire immediately, why couldn't the Nomads too? After all, they are supposed to be more advance and all that.

The one requirement I can see as reasonable, would be the necessity to RP in Local Chat and not system wide, when RP'ing an engagement notice cloaked.

There was a nomad indie I came across the other day, and I caught up to it cloaked. I bade it to keep moving or I'd move it along myself. I was cloaked, it was in local. He immediately left and continued on his journey. So, he had his warning. If he'd hung around, or responded like they wanted to fight, (or tried to cloak if he had one) I then would have probably dropped and opened fire. From my own experiences, I don't see a necessity to mandate engagement RP while visible for all ships. The system in place still covers it. If people are being too hot with their cloaks, punish them as needed, not all of us in advance. Fixed time limits and batts were already brought in place to help curb silent ambushes. When all the time if there really was no time to respond, sanctions should have easily been enforced regardless of cloak use.

Last night I pirated a ship, and for the first time in a long time i was actually able to follow them, across a system, through a jumphole, and for a bit on the other side. They were unaware of my sound and didn't seem to know me so they actually continued trading instead of docking or base hugging! It reminded me of the good old days. I also recently watched some of my old video where i followed ships for sometimes 5-6 mins until i could get them at a sweet spot where I could actually pirate them and not just watch them dock. Point is, once the lessons are learned, its very hard now, with all of the changes to cloaks of the last few years, to actually use them for offensive means.

Even more obvious is the lack of defensive, except for pre-emptive action. Meaning no escape if you're directly engaged, encouraging us to either use them offensively when we do, or bypass all other situations in order to get use out of it.

When pirating I drop cloak, CD and then make my demand. But if I'm bounty hunting or fighting something like a nomad I've dropped engagement rp cloaked. 100% of the time people began moving. We don't need to change to rp only while visible, since basically you can't ambush someone you gave proper time to respond over anyways. Rp wise, if you do it cloaked or not, you still usually don't get the chance to just drop and bust, if you're doing it fairly. All you can do is try to land some hits in the first few seconds of confusion.

The source of the problem is in cloak mechanisms that need to be revisited to promote interaction and not limit it.

Couldn't agree more Jack.

If they change the Cd situation, cloaks will be more about escape than ambush. We'll see more interactions begin, but not always end with death. Unless, Cloak CD's are involved.

People have also said that if this were the case, and escape from regular CD'd ships becomes possible, it should count as pvp death. Perhaps, but what if the guy gets cloaked for 10 seconds and runs out of fuel? He tried bluffing his way out and once he's visible again, then what? Everyone gives up their right to resume pursuit because he's already dead? Or do they resume? Either way, there are always going to be pros and cons to deal with.

Personally, I think it should go to regular CD only and no pvp death since you never know when that attempt to escape by cloak might still work out in your favor... if you're paying close enough attention I also think the market for cloak CD's won't really take off until the become a necessity instead of just an augmentation.

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The Further Exploits of Captain Antares (August 2015) │ (alt) JonasHudson
*Argo | Special Operative ID (Approved Request)* | Argo Compilation Video
################ *Proposed OF Challenge System* ################
############### The Book of Piracy (Piracy Tutorial) ###############
############### Binski Alamo (Youtube Channel) ###############

[HuggieSunrise]

We are discussing extending cloak changes to everyone.
Wilde was proposed to be included in this change, but the Admin Team decided it'd be unfair for that faction, since it wasn't abusing their cloaks lately.

Blatant hypocrisy is occurring here A sham of order.

If you call what we did abuse then... your literally saying the existence of "freely engage targets at will" was someones fault for leaving in the id. Like some sorta time bomb. that is conveniently forgotten for nearly 7 years

I refuse to let you all forget the admins made the public id as a limited engage at will paradise in the omicrons this was limited to a zoi to stimulate activity in the omi's but the nature of silently engaging cannot be called abuse if that power was FREELY GIVEN As such.

Ghies referred to it as "the worst has happened another id that can silently engage" you all KNOW the nature of that id and the nature of the equipment when i was made was infinite before batts were introduced for noms.

Cloaks are mechanically balanced. there are anti cloaking devices a damn Pinging sound the emanates from all cloaked vessels including nomads. Yet it seems these provisions are being completely COMPLETELY IGNORED. is this admin hypocrisy? or are you just saying it isn't enough?

Second point the nom cloaks themselves Were designed for ambushing targets in a world where nomad equipment and balancing were marginalized to be generically the SAME AS EVERYTHING ELSE as human side technology. Nomads had vary little advantage for a faction considered to be of advanced alien origin and thus the main bad guys.

You just let the peanut gallery push you into making every official faction crap its pants. You dont see how?

Just for clarity, this area is being discussed but the silent engaging was not the root of the complaints, in many situations this fits.

The root problem was the decloaking and instakilling without anybody having a chance to react. If this happens with other ID's and a complaint is made then the sanction can use rule 3.1.

Tuni this is bs. the cloaks are either balanced mechanically or their not.. vipex has repeatedly stated the fact there is a plethora of anti cloaking measures not to mention a DAMN SOUND THAT PINGS when cloaked ships are nearby!

IS THAT NOT ENOUGH? state so! tweak those factors ! make the cloak ping LOUD AS HECK or increase the range..

Dont say the CLOAK is at fault anymore then the ID power can be ABUSED.. this is authority the admin team delegates. And you've literally countermanded that authority to "complaints" that are either valid or INVALID because frankly the sin of being killed was not fulfilling enough to those being killed.

ignoring the facts on how cloaks work demonstrates the worst kind of ignorance. And this harms the server worse then what we could have ever done with an arsenal of marginalized equipment, balanced cloaks, and an id thats says "kill anything you want." signed an endorsed by the admin team.

You made every offical faction crap its pants today because the admin teams say the mounds of complaints dictate what harms server gameplay. That the community is right even when its wrong. FFS your supposed to protect the community from itself in this regard.

Especially when you guys dont even relate to us the logic of the decision. All it does is make us assume the worst here. Where is the logical argument that both defeats the Admins to prescribe id powers and defeats the existing dev balances to cloaks to have the protagonist id altered?

no we dont get that we get a viel of "clarification" thats Bull.. "to be clear it isnt the fact the khara was using thier id as prescribe it was that the khara was using thier id as prescribed because when poeple complain not enough time to react this makes us hop up and just say Yeah that sucks we dont effin think about our actions lets nerf it so the bitching stops.

Thats what it looks like. there was no forethought in this change.. and the further this rabbit hole goes the less your team seems to think logically about it.

God to be a fly on the wall. In that debate I can only guess whats really discussed and who truly makes the changes around here.

[Miaou]

We are discussing extending cloak changes to everyone.
Wilde was proposed to be included in this change, but the Admin Team decided it'd be unfair for that faction, since it wasn't abusing their cloaks lately.

I assume you mean the entire Wild and not just Das Wilde, correct? I don't remember the Admins ever saying it was ok for the infected factions to no-notice engage, that was only directed at nomads. If I am incorrect please inform me so I can adjust the Iseijin's faction rules accordingly.