Quote:we are talking about people that attempted to play a role that took up a much more important part of the characters being than the characters equipment. - so we re talking about players that use the ship / equipment as a tool, but not a tool to pvp and win, but rather a tool to support their "role".
Exactly. (Jinx I presume?)
I know some people still are against a "Trial by Forums" but I keep saying: "How hard is it to tell who is asking for permission for PvP purposes against someone who isn't?". If an Outcast posts a story of why he flies a Guardian (just an example) that sports Gaian weapons (again, just an example), I think it's easy to say that he's not going for PvP. But now if an LPI officer somehow flies a Bounty Hunter BS with Nomad turrets, a quick "uh uh" from the community and an admin "denied" is all it takes. Not being hard-headed here, but seriously. I don't think it's that hard to tell.
' Wrote:Extraordinary RP can be done without extraordinary equipment. Hell, I have one myself (the ghosts) and they fly Sabres with Krakens and Wyrms and Infernos.
<sigh> I understand what you mean Gronath. Extraordinary RP can be done with out hardware, but you can't say that's the only way. Maybe you like that type of RP better, but that's your opinion. I like both personally equally, but I think both should be allowed.
' Wrote:nice post Andre. The question is how does a community allow "Greater then the NPC" behavior for some people (like Dreygon and QCP for example) but for other people (Stewcool) they get sanctioned for going beond their NPCs. And how do we decide who gets the benifit of more freedom? The answer to that question is who do we trust.
Those we trust, Dreygon, Zapp, Treewyrm, get more freedom in their Roleplay stories. But trust is not like a post count, it does not automaticlly go up over time. This is why Phantoms is such an admin heavy faction, members that the leaders trust are invited in. Those who have proven responsibility and are known to the admins.
I don't really know what has been debated the past 30 pages but I suspect it has to do with "who do we trust and how do we decide?"
What of the people who have the trust of many of the community but of admin? I think trust is a commodity used among friends many times to ensure thier local ideals hold sway and not the ideals that benefit everyone. An impartial person is hard to find and those who restrict another persons freedom of any kind imagine them selves your superior. I would rather error on the side of freedom as the little perception of power found in an RP server is nothing to worry overly much with.
As for allowing those who nerf themselves for RP? Well let me use this good ole example. Harvester 24 involved with about 30 different players, 3 faction, and nerfed itself was still the one stabbed by Xoria in post 108, of this thread. Our member has adhered to all the exception people say should get to fly more likely than not yet our sanction remains.
Is it because the Harvesters are so untrusted? Is that why we have 48 units now? Many members have multiple units so thats not members and some are decommissioned. You (rhetorical statement) may not like us but our RP is consistant and we have it documented and in the end we are a small part of many peoples RP yet admin cant let us have 1 unit slide just for RP into a BHG gunboat not the Ubership, when our rated ship is far superior corsair gunboat. We even get sanctioned for self nerfing.
So, I think we need to define RP as this server will view it, as Cheshire said and then write a simple rule that if anything errors on freedom. And then follw it so that a mood swing or a player to player friendship or some other human failing does not impact 30+ players again over a single whiner. What we have here is many cases of a single whiner fileing a report and spoiling the fun for many more. Those who dont understand the RP they see are likely not very involved with many other players to begin with so when you jump to thier complaints it only tears down the cohesion built by those INTERACTING with other players.
' Wrote:...
<sigh> I understand what you mean Gronath. Extraordinary RP can be done with out hardware, but you can't say that's the only way. Maybe you like that type of RP better, but that's your opinion. I like both personally equally, but I think both should be allowed.
We're going round in circles, Orin. Really.
The only slight hole with that reasoning is trusting the community to be infalible, incorruptible and unbiased. That's not what happens. True, when someone from "outside" comes with a silly idea, it's shut down violently (for lack of a better term). It has happened numerous times before. The problem is, when this happens within the community (and it also has happened times before), things get nasty. I'm not saying that it would be the end of Disco, but this is the kind of fight within the community that disgruntles its members. I, for myself, have shut down completely from the forums after the last storm, because I couldn't take all the bickering, the attitude and the complete disregard to one another people were displaying.
Also, you're ignoring one issue: Seasoned veterans already know the path to get away with even min-maxing. If you're creative enough and you know your way around the server, its easy to make a very good story which initial intent is to get around with making an spefic combo. People can see right through you, but since you have a solid story, it's all circumstancial and impressions. Next thing people will be accusing each other without anything tangible to settle the dispute.
It's like setting foot in thin air.
I'll keep repeating. I like those stories too, but the best to avoid confusion is to shut them down completely. Don't we already do that with the "I stole it" stories? I'm sure I can come up with an exquisite ship's steal story, but I won't do it, because that's a taboo here. Don't we survive fine without it?
' Wrote:We're going round in circles, Orin. Really.
The only slight hole with that reasoning is trusting the community to be infalible, incorruptible and unbiased. That's not what happens. True, when someone from "outside" comes with a silly idea, it's shut down violently (for lack of a better term). It has happened numerous times before. The problem is, when this happens within the community (and it also has happened times before), things get nasty. I'm not saying that it would be the end of Disco, but this is the kind of fight within the community that disgruntles its members. I, for myself, have shut down completely from the forums after the last storm, because I couldn't take all the bickering, the attitude and the complete disregard to one another people were displaying.
Also, you're ignoring one issue: Seasoned veterans already know the path to get away with even min-maxing. If you're creative enough and you know your way around the server, its easy to make a very good story which initial intent is to get around with making an spefic combo. People can see right through you, but since you have a solid story, it's all circumstancial and impressions. Next thing people will be accusing each other without anything tangible to settle the dispute.
It's like setting foot in thin air.
I'll keep repeating. I like those stories too, but the best to avoid confusion is to shut them down completely. Don't we already do that with the "I stole it" stories? I'm sure I can come up with an exquisite ship's steal story, but I won't do it, because that's a taboo here. Don't we survive fine without it?
Isn't this an RP server? Isn't creativity the heart and soul of RP? Why do you insist creativity be strangled? So people won't have a PvP advantage in terms of their ship and equipment?
There are a great many interesting ideas for characters that you are shooting right now, including your own Mandalorians faction (cough imported name cough). Turncoats, rebels, seperatists, disloyalists, mercenaries, stolen/boarded ships, preexisting stoylines... and others I am unable to come up with immediately.
Gronath, as much as I respect you, NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO ROLEPLAY A RANK-AND-FILE NPC.
Personally, I can live as an ordinary character. I don't have the talent to roleplay a more unique character, but I don't want to see them go. Yes, my characters use only their faction's equipment. Yes, this makes them boring characters to play and play with. What I don't want to see is everyone else whose characters look like they just came out of a factory. Because that's what you're demanding and it produces a VERY boring RP environment.
There are a great many interesting ideas for characters that you are shooting right now, including your own Mandalorians faction (cough imported name cough). Turncoats, rebels, seperatists, disloyalists, mercenaries, stolen/boarded ships, preexisting stoylines... and others I am unable to come up with immediately.
Gronath, as much as I respect you, NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO ROLEPLAY A RANK-AND-FILE NPC.
...
You guys are revolving around stories while I'm talking about just equipment. I really can't understand. Be inventive, just don't mess with the equipment.
Quote:I like those stories too, but the best to avoid confusion is to shut them down completely.
Confusion and a little flame-wars? What happened to trial and error? Countries have gone through countless political systems before finding something that is effective for their people. Do they decide it's too much work or too confusing and simply outlaw everything without trying? Maybe in Communism, or in a lazy or corrupt leader. That's essentially what you are suggesting.
You keep saying "RP can be maintained without unique hardware". It can. Possibly 90% of the time. But those of us who think that that 10% deserves to exist have every reason to demand it. This is an RP server, if 10% is taken away for the *supposed* good of the community, it is still taken away, and RP suffers. I don't care if blood is spilled in trial and error. I'm not being selfish, this is the internet and a game. If a PvP set up is allowed through what dies? What suffers? My main concern is indeed that this doesn't become a PvP server. Little to no PvP-only set ups will make it through "Trial by Forum".
And you say veteran players will take advantage of writing superbly to excuse PvP set ups? You don't give the community much credit. And you think just because a story is good (a vet excusing a PvP set up here as you say) we as a community will say "Okay. You'll have a perfect PvP set, but the story is great! Bravo, stamp of approval!". No, I honestly don't think this will happen. Difference of opinion will happen. It's a forum, it already does. It's happening right now, and unavoidable
In the end, the end justifies the means in a sub-forum IMO. More is lost by outlaw than in trial and error. Mistakes can be made. It won't be the end of the world, we at least have to try something else before locking unique hardware up and throwing away the key.
' Wrote:...including your own Mandalorians faction (cough imported name cough).
Well, if you're going to challenge my argumentation, at least have the decency of attacking it, not myself. The name Mandalorians wasn't created by myself, and everyone in it, besides the creator, always made an effort to avoid bringing Star Wars to Discovery. I'm certain we did a good job with the faction, despite the imported name.
Trial and error? Well, I'm not talking about expectancies and impressions. I'm talking about history. This kind of debate you're proposing won't be something new in Discovery, it has happened before. I'm thinking about experiences such as the whole debate about the Corsairs being allowed or not to use Debilitators, or the "discussion" about them "whoring" the Tigershark, or the Outcasts "whoring" the Slipstream in turn, or the Liberty Navy "whoring" buckshots. There goes your "trial and error", that's the quality of discussion this community can provide, that's the quality of the faith I have in it and that's precisely the sort of "flame wars" I wouldn't like to see repeat itself.
' Wrote:I'm thinking about experiences such as the whole debate about the Corsairs being allowed or not to use Debilitators, or the "discussion" about them "whoring" the Tigershark, or the Outcasts "whoring" the Slipstream in turn, or the Liberty Navy "whoring" buckshots. There goes your "trial and error", that's the quality of discussion this community can provide, that's the quality of the faith I have in it and that's precisely the sort of "flame wars" I wouldn't like to see repeat itself.
' Wrote:Trial and error? Well, I'm not talking about expectancies and impressions. I'm talking about history. This kind of debate you're proposing won't be something new in Discovery, it has happened before. I'm thinking about experiences such as the whole debate about the Corsairs being allowed or not to use Debilitators, or the "discussion" about them "whoring" the Tigershark, or the Outcasts "whoring" the Slipstream in turn, or the Liberty Navy "whoring" buckshots. There goes your "trial and error", that's the quality of discussion this community can provide, that's the quality of the faith I have in it and that's precisely the sort of "flame wars" I wouldn't like to see repeat itself.
I dunno, that sounds an AWFUL lot like they're saying no (albeit in less-than-polite terms) to the proposal. Congrats, you just proved Orin's system works (albeit in perhaps a less-than-polite way).
' Wrote:I dunno, that sounds an AWFUL lot like they're saying no (albeit in less-than-polite terms) to the proposal. Congrats, you just proved Orin's system works (albeit in perhaps a less-than-polite way).
Well, unfortunately that's what it comes down to. I don't like flame-wars any more than the next guy, but this is an online community, opinions will differ and debates will ensue. But I don't think the fear of differing opinions is enough to place such a restriction. It might cause some issues, but again: I think the ends justify the means if this facet of RP is given the ability to thrive.
That said, I do believe decisions can and will be reached without "flame-wars" on the sub-forum. Just not all. And I'm willing to deal with that.
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