' Wrote:You cannot have it both ways. Sorry ... but this issue has been discussed over and over again. Traders are free to move about and resume their trading at will regardless if they were killed in the systems they travel in. A pirate can make demands from traders multiple times and can destroy those that don't pay multiple times as often as they travel through the system. My pirate destroyed the same trader about a dozen times in one hour because he continuously moved cargo through Sig 13 while refusing to pay ... in fact refused to even speak.
Face it ladies and gents ... piracy is a unique situation ... which is precisely why there are rules that are specific ONLY to piracy.
The no cruise rule does NOT apply in this situation since the trader is not required to leave the system ... nor is the trader required to stay out of the system he cruised away in. In EVERY situation a trader refuses to pay ... he is in effect "fleeing" the pirate. So ... I suppose we should NEVER see traders in Sigma 13 or any other high traffic trade route. After all ... since traders ALWAYS cruise away from pirates ... they would never be able to make any money on any of the popular trade routes. Heck ... I could hang out in the system these traders sell their goods. Soon as they cruise ... snappy snappy ... if I see them return before the 4 hours is up ... violation report.
The rule you quote only goes to help my point Spear ... traders are not combat vessels.
Heh I guess it's time for our bi-annual disagreement thread Baltar :P
Okay first of all, I do not want it both ways. To me the trader coming back into the system he died in is less than stellar rule. But it is what it is for the moment so the trader is doing nothing against the rules. Just because the trader can return to a system he fled from/died in, does not mean your "combat" vessel can. If I follow you logic, then if a trader kills a pirate then the pirate doesn't have to leave the system he just died in because it was a trade ship that killed him and it wasn't "technically" a PVP and the trader wasn't even a combat ship so my death does not count! I don't agree with that argument.
My next point has to do with killing the same trader a dozen times in one hour, I mean really? Yes OORP for the trader not to interact or even speak, but to kill him 12 times? I don't know why you bothered, I would have long given up on trying to interact with that player.
The last thing I'd like to say in this post is that once the shot's are fired you have entered a combat situation and you should respect the no-cruise in combat rule. I don't understand why you are against this, since the trader will engage his cruise engines to escape first then you can pursue. If the trader uses thrusters to escape then you should also be thrusting after him. Saying "Cruise in combat" does not count in a piracy situation sounds like interpreting the rules rather than observing them. If a trader flees on thruster, and the pirate cruises to catch up to him first, he has broken the rules IMHO.
[font=Georgia][color=#FF6600]Does anyone of you really have time left over time to play this game...
Dont forget to go out there and play sometimes to jeez, seams like all you people do is spend more time in here whining aboute everything 24/7 - 256 days a year instead if gaming.. im getting sick of this whole mod.
' Wrote:[font=Georgia][color=#FF6600]Does anyone of you really have time left over time to play this game...
Dont forget to go out there and play sometimes to jeez, seams like all you people do is spend more time in here whining aboute everything 24/7 - 256 days a year instead if gaming.. im getting sick of this whole mod.
Quote:Does anyone of you really have time left over time to play this game...
Dont forget to go out there and play sometimes to jeez, seams like all you people do is spend more time in here whining aboute everything 24/7 - 256 days a year instead if gaming.. im getting sick of this whole mod.
Start playing , stop complaining! smile2.gif
Actually, the year has 355 days (356 if it's a leap year)
Well, anyway, I think that a trader vs. pirate fight is still a PvP fight, although I feel that traders shouldn't have to obey the 4 hour rule, since if they had to obey it, everyone would lose out: the pirates would make less in taxes and the trader would lose out on trading profit. I think that the rules should be made more clear on that point, but otherwise, I'm fine with things the way they are.
As I see it, the 4h rule is implemented to give weight to the death, instead of just a respawn and drive on. So, it would add to role play if the traders had to adhere to it. Give more weight to the whole pirate-trader relationship if the trader actually had more to lose than just cargo and some credits.
' Wrote:Heh I guess it's time for our bi-annual disagreement thread Baltar :P
Okay first of all, I do not want it both ways. To me the trader coming back into the system he died in is less than stellar rule. But it is what it is for the moment so the trader is doing nothing against the rules. Just because the trader can return to a system he fled from/died in, does not mean your "combat" vessel can. If I follow you logic, then if a trader kills a pirate then the pirate doesn't have to leave the system he just died in because it was a trade ship that killed him and it wasn't "technically" a PVP and the trader wasn't even a combat ship so my death does not count! I don't agree with that argument.
My next point has to do with killing the same trader a dozen times in one hour, I mean really? Yes OORP for the trader not to interact or even speak, but to kill him 12 times? I don't know why you bothered, I would have long given up on trying to interact with that player.
The last thing I'd like to say in this post is that once the shot's are fired you have entered a combat situation and you should respect the no-cruise in combat rule. I don't understand why you are against this, since the trader will engage his cruise engines to escape first then you can pursue. If the trader uses thrusters to escape then you should also be thrusting after him. Saying "Cruise in combat" does not count in a piracy situation sounds like interpreting the rules rather than observing them. If a trader flees on thruster, and the pirate cruises to catch up to him first, he has broken the rules IMHO.
Yes ... I suppose it is time for our periodic disagreement ... just keep in mind its not personal ... just two people on the opposite side of a debate.
Spear ... by having it both ways I mean this ... if piracy is a PVP event then ALL PVP rules apply. You cannot selectively apply just those PVP rules you feel like. It is either PVP or it is not PVP. If we call it PVP ... then ALL PVP rules apply to the event. And that means the 4 hour rule goes into the mix. It would be hypocritical to only apply the PVP rules you see fit.
My opinion is that a trader who is killed by a pirate should be considered dead ... and thus should logout and come back in another character or find a new trade route for a few hours. So really I agree with you on that part. But the rules do not support this ... and the admins have ruled that a trader can continue trading regardless of how many times he's been destroyed. So in reality we agree that in role play the trader has died in combat. But if we're going to apply the rules ... we MUST be consistent. If we apply one PVP rule (namely the no cruise rule) ... the we MUST apply all other PVP rules (including the 4 hour death/fleeing rule).
Regarding the OORP trader I spoke of ... yes ... bit much. But I attempted to teach him a lesson ... which to my frustration did not work. And since admins would not sanction such a trader for this (due to the rules as written) I've come to the belief that any interaction with traders is futile. Piracy is pretty much dead. Scan through the forums and you find anti-pirate threads everywhere ... look further and you find bounties posted on pirates for ungodly amounts (50 mil credits or more ... and no limit to the kills) while these traders complain and whine about pirates demanding a measly 3 to 5 mil ... then look and you find "generic" bounties that basically release any obligation of the bounty hunter to actually look for a bounty posted for anyone. I mean really ... I think the pirate role play is sufficiently handicapped. Do we really need to make it worse?
@ Baltar: Oh it's nothing personal mate, I just hold a slightly different view. I do agree that traders should have to follow the 4 hour/until attackers leave system rule. But just because they are exempt from this rule at the moment does not mean that all the other PVP rules can be ignored.
I don't agree that piracy is dead, at least not in Liberty where pirates gather in horrendous numbers these days. It takes a major effort from the lawful's just to counter the Gunboat spammage at the moment, a lot of the time there is no opposition from the lawful's because they are outnumbered which is dissapointing, this is why I'm starting to come round to the idea of stripping all ships larger than a bomber of their CD to encourage mixed fleets instead of all Gunboat fleets. I'm not saying Gunboats should be banned from pirating, merely they should be used with support craft, but that's another issue.
If you can cruise after a thrustering transport in your gunboat, there goes the Armored Transport and any freighter's main advantage...200 thruster speed is worthless if the pirate is closing on you at 350 cruise.
As for transports not being combat vessels...what about those people doing cargo piracy in Pirate Transports? Breaking rules are they, now? Police forces that use/used transports for contraband interdiction? (The BPA used to use Percherons (dunno what happened with the new IDs, tho...I heard they can't, any more)).
I thoroughly agree that interaction with any type of transport or freighter class ship is getting ridiculous. There are so many rules in place protecting them that it feels as if soon one will only be permitted to shoot a freighter while in a LF...and even then, only to do shield damage...
' Wrote:@ Baltar: Oh it's nothing personal mate, I just hold a slightly different view. I do agree that traders should have to follow the 4 hour/until attackers leave system rule. But just because they are exempt from this rule at the moment does not mean that all the other PVP rules can be ignored.
Will be nice when there is a clear definition written in stone to rid us of having to revisit this discussion over and over and over again.
Quote:I don't agree that piracy is dead, at least not in Liberty where pirates gather in horrendous numbers these days. It takes a major effort from the lawful's just to counter the Gunboat spammage at the moment, a lot of the time there is no opposition from the lawful's because they are outnumbered which is dissapointing, this is why I'm starting to come round to the idea of stripping all ships larger than a bomber of their CD to encourage mixed fleets instead of all Gunboat fleets. I'm not saying Gunboats should be banned from pirating, merely they should be used with support craft, but that's another issue.
Eh ... dunno about getting rid of the CD's on GB's ... I'm a loner pirate. What am I supposed to do ... say "halt or I'll say halt a second time" ... kinda kills the pirate role play considering many pirates work alone.
I rarely encounter pirates in Liberty ... must be in a different time zone. Pirate fleets? Kinda strange ... but I can see why some get annoyed at these ... it is a bit OORP for "Pirate" ID'd vessels to form fleets. I would however expect Outcasts, Corsairs and major faction's that conduct piracy to be in fleets ... but the generics are independent ... that's what these generic ID's are for ... those who are unaffiliated.
But either way you look at it ... pirates operate under the most stringent rules on the server ... even terrorists have more freedom since they can attack without making demands and indiscriminately. When I see some stricter rules for bounty hunters, traders and lawfuls ... I might agree with you on much of this. But as it stands I'm getting a bit tired of everyone calling for stricter rules on pirates. Here's a sampling of what I've seen (these aren't in the rule book ... but many are calling for them):
- limitations on what a pirate can demand
- restricting pirates from pirating the same vessel multiple times (traders would love this one)
- forcing pirates (with Pirate ID even) to remain within certain systems ... in other words limit their mobility ... strange to see lawfuls complaining of Outcast in Liberty when Outcast NPCs are all over the place
- forcing pirates to demand cargo instead of credits
- not allowing pirates to use trade lanes
- not allowing pirates to pirate near lawful planets (even when its obvious that the lawfuls are hostile to him ... and can visibly witness the pirate's shields going down)
- not allowing pirates to camp jump holes (come on ... they're out in the middle of no where and most have unlawful bases nearby)
Keep in mind these are just examples of what people have said in the forums and in game. It gets really really old when you're in the middle of pirating someone or being chased by a lawful to hear OOC chatter about your role play as a pirate. Its like we're automatically assumed to be OORP. Come on ... give us some breathing room.
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