Junkers are Quasi-Lawful. And the definition of Quasi is "Something that appears to be something it is not."
And I think that fits Junkers perfectly. They have a shady background of smuggling and housing criminals, as well as piracy. But the lawfuls tolerate them, it even states it in their Vanilla info card.
Quote:Where theres junk, there are the Junkers. Theyve been around since the earliest days of the Trade Lanes. Descended from the working classes, they developed within the House systems as a sort of necessary evil, handling the dirty work that no one else would. They do well salvaging valuable materials from the ever-increasing debris fields throughout Sirius, with the notable exception of Kusari. To this day they remain held at bay by the Hogosha.
Anyone who deals with Junkers knows they live by a strict code; if you're not a Junker, you're not part of the family. A Junker will double-cross you without a second thought, and they're fiercely protective of each other. Most House corporations consider the Junkers to be simple criminals, but Junkers will occasionally do favors for the police, turning in the odd, mid-level criminal or letting them know about the occasional drug shipment. So despite some harassment, the police stop short of shutting them down. The infrequent police cleanup operations are little more than exercises in public relations, though there's no love lost between the two groups.
The Junkers make their official money from salvaging debris within the fields, but also have a good deal going with various criminals, who like their "no questions asked" policy. Tolerated by the governments, Junkers sometimes deal in contraband, but they are extremely hard to catch red-handed. They are frequently patronized by the criminal element for the refuge they offer within the often hostile territory of House capitol systems.
Liberty has two groups: a major population in the New York system, and a smaller enclave in Texas. The Junker base of operations in New London is located near the shipyards within the Southampton Debris Field. In New Berlin they scavenge the remaining pockets of industrial waste and scrap within the asteroid fields. Their latest foray is a departure -- a base in the Border Worlds. Attracted by the ALG operation in Sigma-13, they have set up shop near the facility and do most of the dirty work, picking off the best loot from the old ships for themselves. It also serves as a convenient launching point for Cardamine and Artifact runs into New Berlin. Long-distance smuggling is new for the faction, which is still perfecting this skill.
What's never been addressed is what were the game designers thinking when they created Junkers? I think I know. Every house and faction is modeled after something.
Outcasts are Colombian drug lords, Corsairs are Pirates of the Caribbean, the "houses" are after the most "imperial" and "manifest destiny" phases of their 20th century governments. Rogues are "Highwaymen", Mollys are the IRA, Hogosha are Yakuza. Lane hackers are the seedy technical hackers and social engineers of our day--etc., etc.
These are broad generalities (and you can disagree with them) but you get the point. Junkers are simply "Gypsies"--I patterned the Junker Congress after the American revolutionaries and gypsies--there is even a Romany/Gypsy Congress. Sort of a , "What would gypsies be like if they had an American revolution and founded their own country?"
"Gypsies are criminals". Well, no--but many are. Same with Junkers. People eye them warily are skeptical of their motives and watch their belongings because they are a distinct and separate people with their own ways and morality and they shield and hide it mostly from others.
So "smuggler" doesn't mean an APB is out on you and "Junker" doesn't either.
I'm not sure what you are worried about blubba but am happy to explain about anything you want to know. Junkers are diverse--I play one of the diversities in my characters but I don't fully define what all they can be.
' Wrote:Junkers are not lawful. They are shady scamps. They are pirates, smugglers, slavers, spies. Nobody likes them, nobody trusts them. They don't like anybody except other Junkers.
They are always involved in illegal activity. They make businesses with pirates. They have positive feelings with pirates and negative with corporations, hunters and navy. Their bases are always deep in the scrap or asteroids fields. Their guests are only bandits and pirates. They offer missions against hunters and navy. Some lawful stations offer missions against junkers. Navy provides rides against Junkers occasionally. How can they be lawful then?
"Say's who? I see no evidence of such dealings. In fact I made quite a good profit on communications gear, and operating in lawful space...
.... I was very useful to the lawfuls, in cleaning up the pittsburgh Debris Field. I have not had very positive feelings towards many pirates. Backstabbing toads more often than not. " ~Says Hyung Soongs Ghost.
Quote:But, they are tolerated by police, navy and secret service, because they are useful. They clean scrap fields, deliver materials, sometimes goods which are needed but cannot be get officially, and they provide knowledge about dark side of society.
Till Junkers don't do any illegal things publicly, authorities don't interfere in their business. But it doesn't make them lawful. And authorities don't care when somebody kill Junker. One scum less.
Slightly different position Junkers have in Gallia. Their services for Royals were very valuable, so they can set their bases in the open space near tradelane. But they are still scums. Other unlawfuls see them as traitors. Nobody trust them, and nobody likes them, and even lawfuls don't have positive feelings toward them.
That is like I see us - Junkers.
That depends on the individual Junker relationships with those of whom you speak. "Junker" is a one size fits all catchphrase, but you can be trusted by lawfuls, if you so choose to appear that way...
Read Tinkerbells thoughts above. They might help you define more what a Junker is to your own mind.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
I've been playing the Congress with elements of a modern-day organized crime wing. I've taken cues from the current Hell's Angels reputation and organization, along with various mafia archetypes. Their existence always hinges between legitimacy and outlaw, often mixing good business fronts with great lawyers and staying out of jail as a result.
I've also noted that police forces in high-crime districts tend to ignore the more 'civilized' criminal organizations in return for helping to cull the ones causing the real problems.
On Junkers and Biker Gangs being similar: in biker gangs you have the peon enforcers that take the hits and do the time, the drug runners, the launderers and businessmen, the overseers, and the legitimate businessmen that have no faults other than being card-carrying members of the organization and trade favors for favors.
Yeah personally I've viewed junkers as organised crime, be it mafia or large-scale drug dealing. My own junker came about after watching The Wire for the second time, and draws heavily from all that. I mean, you have the biggest drug dealer in the city working out of a little junk shop, deftly fixing a toaster while he brokers some million dollar drug deal. And you of course have Bubbles who walks around the city collecting scrap metal to sell on.
But yeah, the junkers are the only real cognate to contemporary criminals in freelancer. Hogosha are close, but they have that whole thing where they can actually openly flout the law. All the other unlawfuls are just out-and-out enemies of the state, terrorists, whatever. Junkers - you might 'know' this guy's a smuggler or a drug dealer or whatever, but if you can't prove anything, you just have to treat him as a civilian.
And if some guy rolls in to town and kills them all because he's being paid to by some terrorists from another country, dude is a criminal.
Surprised at the difference in response to the zoner and junker bounties, really, especially when, in gross tonnage, I bet zoners shift around 10000x more contraband.*
It seems there's two almost unrelated arguments going on here - can the Bounty Hunters attack Junkers and can they fulfill contracts set forth by the AFA? In other words, are the Junkers and AFA lawful or not? So here's my .02 cents:
The Junkers, for all intents and purposes, can be considered an unlawful entity that's not openly prosecuted but also not exactly given much shelter by the law. How many times in real life has law enforcement turned a blind eye to the killing of one gangster by another? (highest profile case I can think of is 2Pac's slaying...I know, bad example) Or to cases of vigilante justice? Though they may not acknowledge it and publicly condemn it, I imagine the police would welcome a "shakeup" of the Junkers provided to them free of charge by an outside group, the Bounty Hunters Guild. In my opinion, the Junkers should be fair game to the BHG should a lawful contract on the Junkers be offered. The House authorities would surely turn the other way and let the BH and Junkers go at it without stopping such an act.
However, if we can agree that the Junkers should not be considered lawful, then we must say that the AFA is unlawful for many of the same reasons. They are tolerated by the government because they are connected to powerful politicians and because they are primarily damaging to foreign groups such as Synth Foods. But make no doubts about it, they are still criminals, just as in real life organized crime often has its hands deep in the pockets of "legitimate" politicians and businessmen. On top of all that, they openly ally themselves with the biggest criminal group in Sirius in the Corsairs.
My point here is this: because the AFA should be considered unlawful, then the BHG cannot fulfill any bounty contracts set forth by them; in fact, the specified target in the contract is completely irrelevant to this. However, the Bounty Hunters would be able to fulfill a contract on the Junkers if it was issued by a lawful organization.
' Wrote:Er...judging by the 4 pages so far of this thread, I wouldn't say so myself.
And if this is so clear, what exactly are we debating?
EDIT: I kind of sounded like an ass there...that's not was I was going for at all fyi
I thought you summed it up good. Not really a debate--more like brainstorming analysis.
Quasi-lawful isn't the same as lawful.
Quasi-lawful has criminal affiliations and gets along with them.
Quasi-lawful is barred from some lawful activities.
So quasi-lawful is just criminal with caveats. The Hogosha, Farmers , Junkers all have some distinctions that set them apart.
Hogosha are lawful and allowed to legitimately operate in Kusari but not wholly trusted or respected. Some of their activities must be done without government knowledge (those that break the law) others are accepted--helping police, conducting legal trade--etc. Same with Junkers in other houses.
One of the rumors talks about Hogosha leaders punished for selling cardamine--so they aren't allowed to flaunt the law egregiously. Junkers in like manner I am sure are punished when they do the same level of flaunting.
Farmers are a unique animal but the ongoing rp has pretty much slid them into the same category as Hogosha for all practical purposes. I personally think Hogosha would do the crime and Farmers would help in selling and transport--not co-labor as active criminals (other than fencing). No political group that was openly criminal would last long.
Junkers act as snitches to the police--we know that from the description. So who do they snitch on? Smugglers bringing goods in that they don't have a share in. Blatant and violent criminals that would bring the law down on them. So they gain rep with the cops by "turning bad guys in" (being careful to only turn in the worst of the worst or those who compete directly with the Junkers so even the bad guys "get it"). No doubt, they help with intel on Xenos and are appreciated for their stance against them.
So as long as Hogosha and Junkers confine their activities to low level offenses and keep them out of sight and return some service, they are accepted. In Kusari they are 'legitimized" but that also means they have more responsibility to appear "clean". Tolerance for Hogosha crimes in the public eye would be severely limited.
Junkers for informing might get a slide on lesser crimes but if they escalate up, they become a target. So balance has to be maintained.
BHs have a code and legal procedure--they HAVE to stay within that to be legitimate. If Bhs begin to play fast and lose with the rules, they lose their exclusive franchise I would think and become no different than Junkers or Hogosha.
Think I'm in danger of just repeating myself so I'll keep this short.
Cossack: yeah I pretty much agree with what you've said, except I'm not sure on BHG collectin on a 'lawful' junker bounty. For me, a lawful junker bounty would be a bounty on 'junker smugglers' or 'junkers assisting unlawfuls'. The reason junkers are entrenched in society is because they are hard to charge - which implies there is at least some semblance of law present in Sirius. Yeah if a junker kills another junker, the police won't get upset, but they couldn't stand idly by if a contract was put out on the, or even if the internecine stuff got out of hand. Maybe they don't want to, but they'd be bound by law.
Tink: The difference between hogosha and junkers is that hogosha are part of the establishment. they can get caught with artifacts or software or whatever. junkers are just standard guys doing standard crimes and getting standard punishments.
As for your gypsy thing tink, I think that applies as much to zoners as junkers.
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