Kusari destroyer scale + ship loadouts.

[Curios]

I heared that Kusari dessie was solo killed by VHF because of specific ku_dessie disadvantages, so, i think here is nothing that hard in fighting that ship if you _KNOW_ how to handle it right. Yes, ku_destro requires a _different_ tactic to fight against it. And that's all.

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[Dennis Jameson]

Hey, Mjolnir! So you think the dessie is balanced? Well, how about placing it next to a Bretonian Gunboat and see what happens...



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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

10/6

[mjolnir]

hmmm.... "Kusari dessie is uber because it's small" :nono: the kusari dessie is unrealistic because compar the man near my kusari dessie and the windows of my kusari dessie. The man can be claustrophobic.

All capital ships have rather weird scale compared with stations as written it's the vanilla developers fault.

Yes, but the powercore and hardpoints are in your hands.

Yes, that's why it has the lowest powercore and 9 hardpoints instead of the 13 ones the vanilla model has.

Flying a Kusari Dessie against 4 challengers, and not even knowing how to properly use weapon groups at the time. Killed two, crippled the other two (leaving them with almost no regens). The bombers weren't noobs, and they acknowledged the fact that the Kusari Destroyer needs to be toned down. But that didn't exactly matter to you, did it ?

What matters to me is how normal testing ends like and the opinions of both sides. Now KNF is bombarding me how Kusari Dessie is weak, BAF (those 4 that I tested with and those 2 that I talk to each day) are telling me it's fine. Then there are other people who think it's ok and who think it's not ok.
All in all it seems fine to me.

Yes it can do quite interesting things under certain circumstances, under others it can do nothing. I have killed 2 GBs, Destroyer and 3 bombers in it once alone.. and then one time I died to 1 VHF and 1 GB, without doing any real hull damage to either of them.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Friday]

The question is - does size matter?

Or more specifically, does it matter on a ship that is as maneuverable as the Hatchet?

I would suggest that making such a vessel 50% larger might make a slight difference. At least it would exaggerate the side profile of the ship, whilst keeping the slim front profile.

Personally, the visual amenity of the ship, any ship, is very important too. People may or may not think the small size of the ship is a cause of any perceived imbalance - but at the very least it looks odd.

Oh, and just because it is Vanilla - doesn't mean it was done to the highest quality standards...

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[Friday]

What matters to me is how normal testing ends like and the opinions of both sides.

There are more than two sides to this debate.

Why not go outside the norms?

1) Make the ship bigger.
2) Move the two lowest forward turrets onto the sides of the ship - at the center of the large round object at towards the rear.

These guns can still fire forward, but could also rotate around to shoot back as well.

Trade off some size for some extra fire coverage for the rear...

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[mjolnir]

Hey, Mjolnir! So you think the dessie is balanced? Well, how about placing it next to a Bretonian Gunboat and see what happens...

"Kusari dessie is small that's why it's unbalanced" over and over again. "Sabre is uber cause it has 7 guns" or "Sabre is uber cause it has less mass than any other VHF", will be one of my answers to that from now on, or maybe I'll even combine it.;)

yes the destroyer is smaller than Bretonian GB, yes it has been that way since vanilla, yes it defeats the Bretonian GB just like any other gb.

yes it's rather easy to kill with a Bretonian Destroyer or even a pair of VHFs for that matter.

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There are more than two sides to this debate.

Why not go outside the norms?

1) Make the ship bigger.
2) Move the two lowest forward turrets onto the sides of the ship - at the center of the large round object at towards the rear.

These guns can still fire forward, but could also rotate around to shoot back as well.

Trade off some size for some extra fire coverage for the rear...

Wouldn't need to move any turrets, just turn on the 4 vanilla hardpoints it doesn't use now - 2 on top of main area just behind the bridge, 1 on bottom of the engine, 1 below.

Issues with this approach:

a) resizing vanilla ship - resizing vanilla ship for no reason (balance can be adjusted with turning/armor/guns/power/sheilds etc)

b) would change a ship with very different character into ship very similar to others, so less variety
- variety is nice, that's why we have Superheavy bombers, tiny battleships like the Osiris, cruisers with thin profile (BHG Dessie, OC dessie, Kusari Dessie) etc etc.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[sovereign]

You're missing the main advantage to resizing the KU DD and rebalancing it accordingly- people would bitch at you about it less. :D

It's a GB-killer. Properly flown its also a snubship killer, same idea as the Thresher. The "problem" is that the Thresher also fights a steady supply of Reshephs, Gebs, Osirises, etc. while the KU DD really never fights any heavy caps besides BR DDs and Dunkirks. For the Bretonians, they have a lot more to worry about in the Chimaera than they do in the KU DD. However, the BD and GC also fight the KU DD... and they have nothing larger than a gunboat, save a handful of SRP'd Kagutsuchis and a Togo. If those are not available to come to the field, what do they use to counter the KU DD? Can they swarm it with VHFs in time to save their GBs from the KU DD? Given that I can dodge mini razors in my Thresher, I highly doubt it. If numbers are balanced and a KU DD is present, does it throw the fight?

Do the BD have a regular counter to the KU DD other than "overwhelming weight of numbers"? If not, you might want to leave it a bit more vulnerable to snubships than similarly sized vessels. Keep that in mind when you're doing the 4.86 testing, perhaps.

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[sean24]

Im afraid i'm agreeing with Mjolnir with this. It doesn't need a nerf, its fine as is. How many Kusari Destroyers do you see anyway? Ive flown one and flown a BRGB but to be honest there is no point evening out the stats so that the Bretonians can own.

You take away the cool things about Kusari and you take away Kusari players. Isn't that what we are trying to increase in 86? What I learn't from my inferno discussion is that some factions have advantages in some areas and some factions have other advantages. Without these things the mod becomes boring and uninteresting. Even if it means you lose a couple of fights, you have to reconise the greater importance of these abilities.

[Tenacity]

The size was made this way by vanilla developers, just like Bretonian Gunboat size or Rheinland BS size.

Yes, and we all know that in vanilla FL, players could fly capships, and capships had shields and 150k damage weapons with 4k range. Oh, and it's not like a vanilla fighter would ever stand a chance at destroying a capship on it's own...

Sarcasm aside, you have some really bass ackwards ways of trying to claim something is balanced when it is quite obviously not, Mjolnir.

PvP in this game is about agility and size. In any battle involving capships or mk 2 fighters/bombers/freighters, The ability to avoid damage is a thousand times more valuable than the ability to absorb it or dish it out.

The Kusari Destroyer is -the smallest- cruiser class ship in this mod, almost half the size of the next largest cruiser-class ship. It has more weaponry than any other light destroyer, and -all- of it's turrets can fire forward.

The thing is damn near invincible when faced with bombers or fighters, it's quite literally a gunboat with better guns, more hull strength, a stronger shield, and heavier power core.

People in this thread keep claiming "It was meant to fight the bretonian destroyer!" - no, it wasnt, the bretonia-kusari war was never taken into consideration when this game was being made. That's something -we- put in, without giving any thought to how the ships of each house square off against one another.
The only bomber available to the bretonian armed forces is incapable of dealing with the Kusari destroyer, even if it's flown by a crap pilot. The blood dragon cruiser doesnt stand a chance against the kusari destroyer either, and if the pilot is half decent he can still wipe the floor with a bretonian destroyer without so much as breaking a sweat.

As I said, reduce it to 6 turrets (the six forward firing hardpoints), or scale the thing up. Dont care which, just pick one. We dropped the bounty hunter gunship down to 4 effective turrets for the same reason - it's small and agile, the only reason the kdessie hasnt received the same treatment is because the developers and just about everyone that has a voice around here flies the damn thing.




Just for some comparisons:
-The Corvo cruiser is more than twice as wide as the kusari destroyer, and about 1.5 times longer, but only has 8 guns.
-The BHG Thresher destroyer is, like the corvo, wider and almost twice as long as the kusari destroyer, but only has 8 guns.
-The Resheph recon cruiser, which again has 8 turrets - fewer than the kusari destroyer - is taller and longer, with about twice the surface area for an opponent to hit.
-The Fearless destroyer, which has the same number of hardpoints as the kusari destroyer and has the same powercore, has roughly three times more surface area and is less manuverable.

So despite the fact that the kdessie is, in most cases, at least half as large as these ships, and more manuverable, it has more firepower? Does that make sense to anyone here?

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[Dusty Lens]