Ceoran, your point is a good one. But the registry solution shifts the work around and possibly changes its nature, it does not eliminate it.
Vlko, your point is also taken and the confidence in some indies is appreciated. My original post wasn't meant to be accusatory in anyone's particular direction, apologies if it was. It was more a response to the general thrust of discussion in the thread. That, and I know a number of indies who've read the rules, follow them, rp when given the chance but don't have the time to be involved with the forums really at all.
Balance is indeed the whole goal of this idea as I see it, and there are valid points to both sides. The registry as put forward will not work, there is too much opposition and a number of faction leaders (who would supposedly monitor it) have already spoken out against it. So in the realm of getting things done, the next question is what measures will be accepted and what will they achieve?
I don't want to see better equipment only in the hands of official factions. An indie or a faction member of a military for example are equally part of the military, RP wise. That and it probably won't solve the issue. My guess is that the ship itself is the draw, not weapons that have somewhat better stats.
We need more ideas to find something that works. That is, unfortunately, the difficult part.
The only thing I've come up with is a searchable list of all cap ships, registered much like some official factions already due for tech use (eg. BAF Cap Ship Registry). A spreadsheet or such could easily handle this, and search the available names in seconds. Anyone not on the list or on the "black" side of the list can't fly (or they are open for attack or some such if they do). It's basically a very much paired down registry idea, with no approval process beyond the proper in game ID and a post to the list. This would be more attractive for people not active on the forums as registering and firing out a couple lines is far less intimidating than submitting a formally judged application.
Some problems: Doing this retroactively. Getting the initial data in would be nightmarish.
Maintaining the file. The cap ship registry threads are already monitored and responded to, but how to coalesce that into a single, searchable location?
Bah, even typing that out it seems like a completely impractical idea. Maybe it will spark something else.
Edit - Somewhat ninja'd by Doc Holiday. Extra set of guidelines, sanctionable and visible when purchasing any capital ship is probably a very good idea. Need some way of ensuring you can't skip past it either.
Goodness me. A hundred posts of spam in one day? A hot topic indeed..
Quote:You don't have as much experience of the sublime pleasure of having to look after Outcast lulwuts as Notequinoxe does, or I, so I'm going to have to ask you to create an Outcast, try to teach indies for about six months and then come back.
kk? k
Not Outcast lolwuts, specifically, no. However, see the rest of this post for more details on that.
That said, I did have an Outcast for, in fact, about six months early last year, and I did, in fact, do exactly what you just suggested. Imagine that.
Quote:Guess what, I DID ask permission from the official faction when I had the money to buy a cap. And guess what, I received it.
Good to hear! Your experience isn't that of the entire populace, however.
Quote:It's not punishment it's prevention. Don't mix up terminology in order to look like you are saying something decent or playing that "fairness" card.
Really? So removing the ability to fly a capital ship is not punishment, but prevention? See, you're actually half right here. It is prevention, but it's punishment as well. You're trying to distract from the actual meaning of the word here. I could just as well say that a pair of glasses aren't metal, but glass, when in fact they are glass inside metal.
I will respond more in-depth on the subject of universal punishment later in this post.
Quote:It doesn't work. Quite a bunch of people who spent their time (I bet more than 3 months+) doing it, can say the same.
Really, now? This is where I talk about my experience with lolwuts, of course. I'm best known, of course, for repeatedly leading a faction that has no indies. So of course, you might assume that I have no experience with indie idiocy. You'd be mistaken.
Let's start with the most obvious and work our way up from there. I'm going to postulate that if you are commenting on these "lolcaps", you know what the situation in Liberty currently looks like. Would it surprise you, then, to know that historically, our current situation is excellent? Oh, yes. I remember the First Battle of California Minor. My Hellfire Legion gunboat, TankTarget's Hellfire Legion fighter, DBoy's Order fighter, and Korrd's Asgard Warrior (basically mercenary) bomber. We fought... oh, a good twelve capital ships and a single fighter. This was considered an normal engagement. The only reason it's been remembered was the unusual lack of casualties on our side: I died once, in this case. This was, of course, in the days of the three-death rule, when you could die three times before you were considered "out". I'm not telling you about this to brag about our fighting prowess - they were just outright awful, and one of them died by somehow managing to run his cruiser into the planet - so much as to tell you that I've dealt with these people before. This "swarm" effect has slowly decreased as the years have gone by, and has become less one-sided, but it's still definitely there. My most common enemies are still the LNS "lolcaps", who open fire silently, hide behind NPC battleships, say "lol haker dai" in system chat (literally), and all sorts of related variable lunacy.
Now, let's move on from there to my modern-day anti-lolwut work. Throughout the past two years, I have consistently asked anyone who shows signs of lolwuttery - whether fighter, capital ship, or transport - if they know how to roleplay. I don't just let it stop there. I try to find proof that they do. I ask them to tell me what it is, or to explain it in some way. If they don't seem to know, I explain it to them in ways that I have, over the years, found to be most effective (see below). Whether or not I have to explain this to them, I then proceed to explain that roleplaying is part of the rules of the server, and I point them to the rules thread here on the forums. But what I do now is nothing compared to what I used to do.
Back when I was originally the leader of the Hellfire Legion, I had a bit of a tendency to spend way too much time on this game. I mean way too much: I had a lot of time, and I used more than I had. I would literally sit stationary in a system for five hours watching the player list, and I would chat up anyone and everyone who was below rank thirty. My first question, the one I always asked, was "Are you new?" Depending on the response to that question, I'd continue, utilizing my "Welcome to Discovery!" and general introductions to the server. I'd spend anywhere from ten minutes to hours with each newbie, answering questions and helping point them towards something they might be interested in roleplaying. And you know what I found? It worked really, really well. Obviously it didn't always work, but when it worked, it really, really worked. Ever heard of Razr or Frozen (who, I seem to remember, is now the head of the development board)? Both of them were introduced to roleplaying in the first place through my newbie help thing. They weren't the only upstanding Disco'ers to be introduced to such via that method, just the only ones who are still well-known today. Heathen, H-Sie, Puck... of course, I wasn't foolproof. I taught a few more controversials as well, such as Hylden. I wasn't doing this in an Angels ship or anything. The Angels were totally inactive at the time, and I've never been a member of them. I was doing this in my regular old Hellfire Legion ship, which was at the time my primary ship, just sitting there helping folks out.
So don't you dare claim I have less right to say lolwuts aren't that awful than you do. I'd say I have considerably more, not that that matters. But rather than criticize what you assume I have or have not done or had experience with, respond to my actual point.
Quote:For now I have an assumption, that people who doesn't suffer much from those so called "Lolcaps" doesn't really care much about the players who do.
Don't assume. Again, see above. I've dealt with Liberty longer than most other members here, and it's actually much better than it used to be.
Quote:There also migth be some people who have quite a bunch of capital ships and as we can see, they are all opposing this idea (in this thread you can obviuosly see it, won't name names, k?) just becouse they are lazy to do some little paperwork for common good.
I have exactly two ships that would be affected by this. One of them is an official faction ship, and I'm trying to get rid of the other one due to the fact that it's been made unusable by lolwuts - not lolwuts in capital ships, but lolwuts in bombers. Guess what? Taking away the capital ships won't magically make the lolwuts disappear. It'll only make them migrate to ships that can actually damage gameplay. I'd much rather fight four capital ships than four fighters if I'm in any ship but a gunboat. Fighters are simply way more dangerous.
Quote:Now those who see postition only from theoretical side, but didn't suffered from their effects easily talks about rights and similiar things. Here we smash into the wall. Agains, as I mentioned, lacking in any will to actually do something about the problem instead of blaming each other. Or even searching for personal way to flame a person who said something you disagree on.
This is exactly what bugs me about this entire post. It's horribly hypocritical; you spend the entire post questioning the legitimacy not of the other side's arguments, but of their right to make those arguments, saying they aren't worthy because of your assumptions of their reasoning and experience. Then, you end it up by demonizing them for flaming when in reality, your side is the one doing the flaming. So please, stay on topic rather than questioning our intelligence. I mean, come on, people. Normally it's the liberals who question the other side's intelligence to make up for a transparent argument. But then again, see below for comments on liberalism and how it applies to this, or to be more exact, how it does not.
Quote:Exactly. That's the main problem. People get away with that even they do crime. I know you should have an idea that increasing punishment lenght or making it (don't know word for english) heavier doesn't really effect the crime rate.
* For example, there 1000 euros fine for corssing the street in the wrong place. Lets assume that there is no cars around nor policemen and you are really in a hurry. Many people would cross although punishment is high. Becouse they can get away with it.
* Now lets say fine is only 10 euros. But you know that if you will cross the street in wrong place you'll be sanctioned 100 percent without a slightiest chance to avoid it.
This comparison is flawed, I'm afraid. It's called jaywalking in the U.S., by the way, so that's what I'll be referring to it as, because I'm a horrific non-global person. How dare I use the terminology I know.
Anyhow, the proposed plan isn't a matter of punishing everyone who crosses the road. It's instead the equivalent of putting a massive steel wall with checkpoints all along the sides of the road so no one can cross without filling out the proper forms and going through a ridiculous, unnecessary process.
Quote:Which scenario would reduce number of people crossing in the wrong places more? Our law system main priority is actually prevention. Not imposing of punishments or anything like that.
But the proposed system imposes premature punishments rather than effective case-by-case prevention. A good example of a prevention law is Jessica's Law, which prohibits sex offenders from living close to schools and playgrounds. These are people who have already broken the rules; they've done something to deserve it. To that, this would be the equivalent of prohibiting everyone from living close to schools and playgrounds.
Quote:Same is here. For now our system has a seriuso flaw which allows people to get away with their wrongs. So here we have an offer of how to prevent it. Of course it won't work 100 percent, but I'm sure it will has much greater effect. Here you go, a lesson of law like thing and rules, as you like to compare with it.
No system is ever perfect, but punished the many for the crimes of the few is not a solution. It makes the system even less perfect than it already is.
Quote:B) As a faction leader, I am not really looking for more headaches, more responsibilities, more time out of game. I think you will find many faction leaders dont get to play their characters in game much. Why? Because so much of their time is taken up dealing with bullcrap. FR5's and skype yelling and factional governments and roll calls, and so on and so on and so on. It's hard to get good people to want to be faction leaders these days, why? cause we throw so much nasty slop on their plates that the smart people dont want to have anything to do with the job. Much like admins, who have so much to deal with that many people who would be good at the job, have no desire to do it.
For the record, this is exactly why I am no longer the leader of the Hellfire Legion and why I left the server for a year at one point. It has nothing to do with the lolwuts, but rather from the factions and their related politics.
Quote:So. IRL, We'd have to take away beer.
Because someone might drink and drive.
For the record, we actually tried this in the U.S. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_i...e_United_States. In particular, see the "society" section, which provides an excellent summery of exactly what happened. If you're too lazy, then the answer is "the Mafia" and "Al Capone".
Quote:All in all: The system is flawed, and needs to be streamlined so that disruptive players are no longer a factor. Nooblet and his liberalist friends might disagree, but their Q_Q to remove this in the first place is what has brought us to this point to begin with, so don't put any trust into them.
First of all, stop flaming the other side. It's getting annoying. Focus on the points.
Second, this has nothing to do with liberalism at all. I'm strongly anti-liberalism. This is an issue of freedom, whereas modern liberalism focuses primarily on equality. Your side is the side of order. In other words, you are the side of conservatism, while we are the side of libertarianism - which, by the way, is very different from liberalism. Liberalism is equality over freedom, freedom over order. Conservatism is order over freedom, freedom over equality. And finally, Libertarianism is freedom over both order and equality. But then again, things never break down that simply, really, do they?
Quote:Edit:
And I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Hot Rod on this one. The official factions are supposed to be role models, but the community as a whole could do a heck of a lot more to improve the indie problem than it is currently doing... even if the indies are playing for an enemy faction.
See above. I'd say I fit that category, no? It'd be nice if other people would do it too.
Quote:In scandinavia for example, alcohol bavareges are under goverment's control. Only reason why alcohol is so free it's becouse our cultural subconsciuosness gives it 'okey'
Ganking it's not a rule. It's common sense. Some people don't like to be as**les
Did you seriously just say something under government control was free? Seriously?
Wow. Some place this world is coming to.
Quote:it would just filter out those that simply fail to grasp the concept of roleplay and fail to keep up with the rules.
Didn't they say that about SRPs? And look what happened. First they were extremely restricted and highly political, and now they're cut off altogether. I don't want us going down that road again. Just... no.
Now please go address my actual points. Thanks. I appreciate it.
Edit: my BBCode seems to have failed me yet again. I'll fix it in the morning.
' Wrote:People yammer on about paperwork, but that's the problem with the current FR5 system which kind of allows idiotic Outcasts to roam Liberty free of thought and even destroy Liberty Rogues at times.
And once more: You can argue that the admins don't want any more work, but then you have to ask
Nooblet and his liberalist friends might disagree, but their Q_Q to remove this in the first place is what has brought us to this point to begin with, so don't put any trust into them.
Over and out.
Edit:
And I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Hot Rod on this one. The official factions are supposed to be role models, but the community as a whole could do a heck of a lot more to improve the indie problem than it is currently doing... even if the indies are playing for an enemy faction.
Liberty Rogues destroy OC's as well.
Their Q_Q? You mean the [101st] charging Outcast independents 100 million so they could fly a dreadnought? Oh sure, they were the golden days; for power trips, independent bashing and general factions can do what they want to you. (Anyone doubting this can go through my posts, and reference, Eppy, Unselie and Akumabito.)
If the official factions are supposed to be role models, why should the independents have more rules?:lol:
There is no independent problem. The problem is with your perception. Use FR2, use FR5. If you do not, do not complain. If it is too much, stand down as a faction leader.
Now, deal with it.
' Wrote:The fact remains that this system functioned perfectly well in 2008, and plenty of people who are here today saw it work... including myself.
At first I srsd, then I srsd some more, then I lold, and then I just realised it's a game and I just want to have fun.
How ever, from a Roleplayers point of view, who's been here a little while, I can firmly say that I approve this.. Thing..
How ever, I can also say for sure that it will never happen..
Why?
More work for the admins..
Solution, let the faction leaders handle the their NPC faction's capital vessels (Heck i'd be fine with cruisers and up!)
Let the official factions (if there are more representing a NPC faction) decide if a player should have their Cap ship or not.
Or if people think its wrong for official factions to make that call.
Then choose members to act as judges, basing their experiences with RP and stories and what not to see if the person application is good enough to handle a battleship.
This last group I think would work best if for example lead by an admin, but the rest can be random members that the admins can choose themselves.
Choose 9 people, if they accept they will rule on the request.
This way it's not factionlancer and the admins wont have TO much more to do..
' Wrote:Their Q_Q? You mean the [101st] charging Outcast independents 100 million so they could fly a dreadnought? Oh sure, they were the golden days; for power trips, independent bashing and general factions can do what they want to you. (Anyone doubting this can go through my posts, and reference, Eppy, Unselie and Akumabito.)
Wow, you really have a selective memory. And going through -your- posts to get the facts? Haha, wow.... you're on a powertrip of your own right now.
Just walk away, Nooblet. I'm sure your selective memory and inane arguments are needed in some Zoner thread over yonder.
Edit:
As for the link to the draft that Morgan made on May 2008: It believe it was removed shortly after Joe and Nico came down Morgan's throat for that "pay us" crap.
You really ought to abandon your spite for Epyon, Nooblet. He's gone, and the surroundings have changed since then. That is to say unless you think I am a clone of Epyon.
limitation on capital ships will also prevent cutting bomber abilities.
I think its right to make capships 'rare' thing in game (except gunboats\ships).
if some one wants fun-enjoy your caps on pvp servers.
also, making cap ships rare, may slightly increase their abilities to make them real battle machins
(i think review of capships battlestyle may include increasing their mass, I did an experiment and find out that mass increasing totally change handling of a ship, it rides like really big ship, and requires some skills (also idea of getting 'driving licence' from first post))
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