(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: How about we simply make it impossible for snubs and caps to harm each other. Let caps deal with caps, let snubs deal with snubs. They should not even be touching one another.
In past I thought that it's a pretty terrible idea, since it'd kinda break immersion and is totally not making any sense inRP.
But, lately, I'm not so sure anymore. It'd divide the player base, that's true and that might have very negative results, but it will also stop that neverending conflict between cap-centered and snub-centered players.
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: How about we simply make it impossible for snubs and caps to harm each other. Let caps deal with caps, let snubs deal with snubs. They should not even be touching one another.
Battleships aren't necessary for most factions. I do however believe that every faction should have available tech at least up to a gunboat, and many factions I can understand having cruisers, but battleships should be pretty limited. It's not like you're handicapped without them anyway, PVP balance you can still fight battleships with cruisers, and RP-wise it doesn't make sense to give every faction a battleship.
The Colonials were the main ones to use and field the Battleships being the military half of that entwined alliance, but the IMG did keep a few. As far as I know, the Battleship allowance is being dropped from the IMG ID (which we are ok with), hopefully the 'historical' Zephyrs can be SRPed rather than simply... being lost.
LR don't really need to combat RM and why would you need caps to fight Xenos? Mollys don't need to fight Gauls by current RP. Nowadays, with the money and support from Gallia and Kusari to an extent, they are at least a fairly sufficient group when you combine Gran Canaria's amenities production so close to them. Some SRPed caps like the attempt for an Arbiter would be reasonable.
GMG had cruisers before if I remember reading about it correctly, but asked for it to be removed. From a pure tactical point of view, they have learned many lessons about nebula fighting, and even in ooRP terms a swarm of bombers is more useful than caps. Some stationary and SRPed ones like the Turtles are all they need and want.
Xenos and Maquis do not have GBs because of their respective 'terrorist lines' (even though the latter could likely field Cruisers reasonably well). I'd quite like to see them opened up again with a restriction put in place for GBs (and larger) not being able to insta a load of trade targets. The same thing for Hessians, actually: if they want to /l1 /l2 Daumann/Kruger then they can gather some bombers. Caps are for fighting RM and Corsairs, and destroying bases.
RP balance and reasoning has come in a little too late where we're not looking to add anything that doesn't make too much sense; just that we've got some (what many consider) mistakes that are not going to be removed.
For your last part, I don't think that every faction needs their own version of every ship. As I've mentioned above, as long as they have a close ally to have a fairly useful (90% core) version on their ID (Colonial Cruisers for IMG, Council GBs/cruisers for Maquis etc.) then it is fitting enough.
Ideally, I'd like it to have it as RP balance = PvP balance.
But of course, you can't eat your cake, and have it too.
Honestly, trying to answer this question is like saying, "Which should be prioritized more: apples or oranges?" They're both good for your body, one/both are enjoyed by people here, and trying to prioritize one over the other just results in Q_Q, no matter how tactfully it's treated. Answering this question with the intent that one should be higher than the other is like being Between Scylla and Charybdis.
No, this problem should be approached with a more globalistic-view, rather than competitive.
Frankly, Jinx made a good summation of what I might've wanted to say, but only served to raise open-ended questions for people to answer, and such creates more arguments because no-one will be satisfied with moar questions. we want answers, darnit! right? right? RIGHT?
IMHO:
Unless the pirate faction has the iRP finance-backing to fund their own shipyards, then the faction shouldn't have capships. Besides, bombers do a fine enough job to kill capships anyway. It's even said here the Xenos have a good capship-slaying streak despite being the poorest faction in Sirius.
As for factions like GMG not having capships, take note: during the 80-year-war, Rheinland had loads of capships. Yet they still lost. Because GMG employed hit-and-run circling tactics, in addition to utilizing the nebulae as cover. Besides... wouldn't you want to brag about killing a death-star BS using a bomber, Star Wars-style?
As for Mollys... I at first thought this was a reasonable argument why they don't have their own cap-line, but then a thought came up: minefields. vast oceans of devastating minefields dense enough to tear ANY capship apart, second only to the Gallics (I think). Because they've saturated their own homes with jihad-mines, using capships in areas seems... counterintuitive. I'd rather have them have their own signature mine-dropper and associated mine, the "Dublin Dust". More powerful than a Nuclear mine. Now THAT would be interesting. [/trollsmile]
Indie-pirates can afford their own GB's, while GC and Farmers have none? Dude, the last time I checked the GC -can- buy gunboats... it's just not -practical- to develop their own capline, when they could just borrow from the Blood Dragons. I also heard that they're not as influential compared to the BD, so they probably have less plausible access to GB shipyards, let alone caps.
Also... the reasoning that EVERY combat-oriented faction SHOULD have their own capline is like reasoning that EVERY weapons manufacturing company SHOULD have their own signature stealth bomber.
hmmm... I think I might've missed something here, but these are what's at the top of my head for the moment.
quick edit: SummerMclovin also made points similar to mine. Look up his points too!
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: How about we simply make it impossible for snubs and caps to harm each oth---
Spazzy, wat r u doin
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: Let caps deal with caps, let snubs deal with snubs---
Spazzy
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: They should not even be touching---
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: How about we simply make it impossible for snubs and caps to harm each oth---
Spazzy, wat r u doin
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: Let caps deal with caps, let snubs deal with snubs---
Spazzy
(03-18-2013, 10:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: They should not even be touching---
SHTAP!!!
But they are cousins...
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i think this is a good point to give caps to such factions as GC and Gaians,or maybe Mollys. Why not? Why Hessians miners can build caps,and mollys - not? Why CR can build caps without any infrastructure and resource base and GC or Xenos not? Why Xenos or Mollys can be ganked by Liberty\Bretonia caps,and Xenos\Mollys cant do this too against lawfuls? I think this is very unfair.
And the last point. Bases,how Mollys,Xenos,GC and others must assault bases without caps? they cannot do this on bombers,so thats is the reason to give caps to all pirates factions.
i think after this - game will be BALANCED,finaly,and all will stop crying that they was ganked by the caps of lawfuls.
RP is a lie, there is only Pixels
Through Pixels, I gain Weapons.
Through Weapons, I gain Ganking.
Through Ganking, I gain Victory.
Through Victory, all rules are broken.
The Great Itabashi terror shall free me.
If the balance of PvP is so important - suffers RP (punks and farmers riding on a huge BS trashing any Navy - thats strange). If the RP balance is important - imbalance PvP. There is no balance and it is inconceivable.
Developers are working on it and we have what we have.