When does a core 1 base die ? After 192456 years ?

[Thyrzul]

That's exactly what I mean; we don't know and that's not good enough.

So you say we don't have enough knowledge about the situation to properly defend TAZ from blind accusations, yet we have enough knowledge for those blind accusations? Sounds like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

Look, back in the old days TAZ locked down Baffin on several occasions, when they did so they'd have a good presence in space and intercept players passing through informing them of the lockdown and why. People would get permits, and the few acting hostile or extremely "lolwutty" would get shot. New players would get a nice introduction what TAZ is, and more experienced players would get to roleplay with TAZ and have fun. Now they set a base to full hostile and just kill everyone, and all the RP it eventually amounts to is posts on the forum saying "Can I pass" and TAZ saying "Ok". That's all the RP said base action generate.

Today's trend is that people leave Disco, got bored of it, got fed up with the "assumed conspiracy", got banned/ships deleted for various reasons I'd rather not discuss as I believe not many would share my thoughts on the matter... Today's trend is that new players act on their own and form their own factions instead of joining or cooperating the "vets". Surprised why there is not too much activity in Baffin? Reasons could be what I listed above. Reason could be that TAZ is currently not blocking down Baffin.

And in these times PoBs tend to be used as a solution.

The difference in "roleplay value" between the two approaches is immense, and I can't understand why this is sufficient to current TAZ with such an impressive legacy.

Want to enrich the RP TAZ provides to it's environment? Join them, and do something for it yourself, instead of constantly attacking them.

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[Anaximander]

So you say we don't have enough knowledge about the situation to properly defend TAZ from blind accusations, yet we have enough knowledge for those blind accusations? Sounds like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

I only experienced 1 dude throwing in the towel - that's one too many for me. Besides rather than go on the full defensive, I think you should give it some thought, also in relationship to the responsibility we all have to make this server a welcoming place to all players. Shooting people and then saying "it's your responsibility to go on the forum and read the news, noob" is really disappointing in that regard. Especially when the declared RP goal could be achieved in another and a lot less violent way.

Today's trend is that new players act on their own and form their own factions instead of joining or cooperating the "vets".

I noticed that as well, but I think some factions and some faction players are quite a lot to blame for that by their approach. Years back, you'd look up to faction leadership because they were going to great lengths to cultivate their faction and include all in a better way. Back then, there were some noobs that just joined factions and acted extremely self-important towards indies - some of those same players are now at the helm, and they look back on the good old days and blame the new players for everything bad, completely failing to realize what made those before them so great. It's not the tag, it is the player.

Want to enrich the RP TAZ provides to it's environment? Join them, and do something for it yourself, instead of constantly attacking them.

Look, you can't keep using that as an argument, it's hollow. What interest would TAZ have in taking me in now, and moreoever what interest would I have to join when half of them probably think I hate them? No thx.

I know it might seem as "attacks" for you, but trust me I am saying what I am saying out of the deepest respect for TAZ and its legacy; I think critique is healthy, it's what makes us better. Don't write that off as "attacks" or cop out and say "join them" - no, take the criticism as adults and deal with it.

[AshHill07]

I like the way this started as a question regarding how best to kill one certain base, and has turned into a full on rant about anouther completely different base.

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\\ CDR David Roberts \\ CAPT Steven Eversman \\ VADM Ash Hill // RDML Chris Murray // CDR Mick Connors //
\\ SFC| Patrol-7 \\ SFC| LNS-California \\ SFC| LNT-Century // SFC| LNS-San.Francisco // SFC| Patrol-5 //

[Anaximander]

It's a long-winding discussion to prove that official factions aren't by default any better at handling bases.

There's no special obligations or extra responsibility for them, their bases can behave exactly like everyone elses - the difference is that some of them seem to feel entitled to let their bases act in certain ways.

[Thyrzul]

I only experienced 1 dude throwing in the towel - that's one too many for me. Besides rather than go on the full defensive, I think you should give it some thought, also in relationship to the responsibility we all have to make this server a welcoming place to all players. Shooting people and then saying "it's your responsibility to go on the forum and read the news, noob" is really disappointing in that regard. Especially when the declared RP goal could be achieved in another and a lot less violent way.

See? You experienced one dude getting bashed by the station and you went on a full scale against the long-term creation of three factions, essentially blaming one. I told you you are over-exaggerating. And I could say the same too, rather going on the full offensive, I think you should give it some thought. Relationships go both ways, both parties involved are responsible for it. I understand it is disappointing to realize your demise is your fault, thing is you have to deal with such as you do in real life and will have to in the future. And maybe learn from it so in the future you will be able not just solve such a situation on a less violent way, but actually prevent any incidents.

I noticed that as well, but I think some factions and some faction players are quite a lot to blame for that by their approach. Years back, you'd look up to faction leadership because they were going to great lengths to cultivate their faction and include all in a better way. Back then, there were some noobs that just joined factions and acted extremely self-important towards indies - some of those same players are now at the helm, and they look back on the good old days and blame the new players for everything bad, completely failing to realize what made those before them so great. It's not the tag, it is the player.

Sad to say, but true. Needless to say same applies to indies as well. There are very good examples on how to work along with the official faction without joining them and there are very bad examples of indies too. I personally try to belong to the more accepting type of faction members, but that's not easy when our popularity is like nowhere compared to other factions. Well, yep, unpopularity has it's cons and pros too.

Look, you can't keep using that as an argument, it's hollow. What interest would TAZ have in taking me in now, and moreoever what interest would I have to join when half of them probably think I hate them? No thx.

That arguement is barely hollow, actions move the world forward, not empty words. If you are as good in roleplaying as good in debates (and I've seen a few transmissions of your chars, not bad at first sight), you could be an addition to TAZ I think. But of course that is something they should decide, as well as it is up to you whether you would wish to join them after developing such lovely relations with them or not. After all, you have to admit if they would indeed think as you think they do, it would be understandable. You pretty much picked on them lately

I know it might seem as "attacks" for you, but trust me I am saying what I am saying out of the deepest respect for TAZ and its legacy; I think critique is healthy, it's what makes us better. Don't write that off as "attacks" or cop out and say "join them" - no, take the criticism as adults and deal with it.

How healthy or necessary a critique is depends on the nature of the critique. Various things such as context, tone, content can determine the nature of the critique. If the tone is aggressive and the content is recurring, one can easily assume you are just "attacking" them. An other example could be your latest lines.

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[Anaximander]

Seee? You experienced one dude getting bashed by the station and you went on a full scale against the long-term creation of three factions, essentially blaming one.

It wasn't my intention to "bash", and the reason why I only have an issue with TAZ in relation that base, and not the CR and Council, is the lore reason and the neutral faction diplomacy. When TAZ are killing innocent Outcasts, they shouldn't stay neutral to Outcasts - CR and Council can pew Outcasts all day, and I'd be happy.

You pretty much picked on them lately

Again, that wasn't my intention and I am sorry if I came across that way. I'm just critical towards the excessively hostile actions of that base and how that corresponds with the lore and legacy of TAZ and the region in general.

If the tone is aggressive and the content is recurring, one can easily assume you are just "attacking" them. An other example could be your latest lines.

I know my approach is way too direct and aggressive for some, and I apologize for that. That doesn't mean I don't stand by what I've said.

[Thyrzul]

It wasn't my intention to "bash", and the reason why I only have an issue with TAZ in relation that base, and not the CR and Council, is the lore reason and the neutral faction diplomacy. When TAZ are killing innocent Outcasts, they shouldn't stay neutral to Outcasts - CR and Council can pew Outcasts all day, and I'd be happy.

The reason TAZ remained neutral despite this is that neither TAZ, nor Outcast officials see the whole as black and white as you do and were able to solve the situation diplomatically.

Again, that wasn't my intention and I am sorry if I came across that way. I'm just critical towards the excessively hostile actions of that base and how that corresponds with the lore and legacy of TAZ and the region in general.

That pretty much corresponds with the lore of TAZ and the region: defends both from a possible GRN assault. You should, in my opinion, rather be critical about how actions of others trigger such hostile REactions. Another recurring points I will not expect you to understand if you didn't already.

I know my approach is way too direct and aggressive for some, and I apologize for that. That doesn't mean I don't stand by what I've said.

Fair enough, just saying you shouldn't be surprised by certain reactions from the other side after all.

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[Anaximander]

The reason TAZ remained neutral despite this is that neither TAZ, nor Outcast officials see the whole as black and white as you do and were able to solve the situation diplomatically

How do you diplomatically settle killing with a nation that lore-wise hold the lives of its citizens in extremely high regard? Killing is killing, there's no grey area.

That pretty much corresponds with the lore of TAZ and the region: defends both from a possible GRN assault.

Aye, that's one side of it. The other side is that TAZ, like the Zoners of the Omicrons, is fundamentally at the mercy of the regional military powers. They thread a dangerous path and have done so extremely wisely and skillfully, until the arrival of PoB's. That's why the Baffin corridor was always kept open to Cardamine trade even though TAZ was aware of and saddened by the consequences of Cardamine abuse, not to mention slave trade. By shooting innocent Outcasts, whether or not they could just have registered, that piece of very significant lore is totally disregarded. Lore-wise TAZ would be suicidal to pull the trigger on any non-hostile non-combateering Outcast, but because it is their base doing it it somehow slides.

You should, in my opinion, rather be critical about how actions of others trigger such hostile REactions. Another recurring points I will not expect you to understand if you didn't already.

As a player, naturally I don't condone people griefing TAZ and being oorp to mess up their day; that goes without saying. My character however couldn't care less, because he is Maltese himself. When he gets shot, he gets mad; naturally. For obvious reasons he doesn't go "oh some other Outcasts gave them trouble so they shot me, that seems legit" and it seems absurd that I am just to accept that because the two official factions agreed on that between themselves.

[Thyrzul]

How do you diplomatically settle killing with a nation that lore-wise hold the lives of its citizens in extremely high regard? Killing is killing, there's no grey area.

See? You only see killing, in which there is indeed no grey area. But the situation was way more than that, not even sure it was about killing at all... your character and his companion survived, didn't they? Just because you see and care about a very small fraction of the facts, that doesn't mean the image you create based on it will be an accurate one, on the contrary.

Aye, that's one side of it. The other side is that TAZ, like the Zoners of the Omicrons, is fundamentally at the mercy of the regional military powers. They thread a dangerous path and have done so extremely wisely and skillfully, until the arrival of PoB's. That's why the Baffin corridor was always kept open to Cardamine trade even though TAZ was aware of and saddened by the consequences of Cardamine abuse. By shooting innocent Outcasts, whether or not they could just have registered, that piece of very significant lore is totally disregarded. Lore-wise TAZ would be suicidal to pull the trigger on any innocent Outcast, but because it is their base doing it it somehow slides.

If the intention of the TAZ would have been to harm the Maltese nation financially, they would have done so already, way earlier than now, as the nation with it's cardamine smuggling and slavery was present way before the Gallic threat. That "piece of very significant lore" was not totally disregarded, if it would have been the case - as you pretty much wish to put things this way - the outcast officials would have let it slide without comms. Apparently they didn't do so. There was an incident and they paid attention to it. The two parties resorted to diplomacy, agreeing that such things won't happen next and everybody went on their ways. It seems that this resolution is not of your liking and that is why you are doing this crusade against Mal Fp.

As a player, naturally I don't condone people griefing TAZ and behing oorp to mess up their day; that goes without saying. My character however couldn't care less, because he is Maltese himself. When he gets shot, he gets mad; naturally. For obvious reasons he doesn't go "oh some other Outcasts gave them trouble so they shot me, that seems legit".

Again, we got to the part where we need to make difference between inRP and ooRP. Your character could care less, he reported the incident, high-ups discussed the stuff, came to conclusion, your character got reimbursed financially and been promised this won't happen again. Did it? Nope. Yet you, as a player, still continue and argue about the decision of said higher-ups, the official faction leaders. This debate in this thread is ooRP, happens between players and community members, so I couldn't care less how ignorant your character is. I did not address him with my message, I addressed you.

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[Anaximander]

See? You only see killing, in which there is indeed no grey area.

Because from the Outcast point-of-view that comes before everything, TAZ did indeed shoot down non-hostile Maltese, there's no running from that and it should have had severe consequences if Outcasts are anything like what their infocards, wiki and forum page suggests.

your character and his companion survived, didn't they?

Of course, I'm playing a computer game here. All of my characters have 100% safe emergency pods on their ships, but it's fair to assume that in-rp not everyone would survive getting shot down all the time?

If the intention of the TAZ would have been to harm the Maltese nation financially, they would have done so already, way earlier than now, as the nation with it's cardamine smuggling and slavery was present way before the Gallic threat.

I'm not talking about intent, this isn't about intent at all. I'm talking about roleplay consequences. Look, you can't block off a system and shoot down every passing non-registered ship on this roleplay server and say "hey it's not our intent to hurt you, so nevermind what happened. Let's pretend your cargo reached its destination safely, and you secured your profits".

That "piece of very significant lore" was not totally disregarded, if it would have been the case - as you pretty much wish to put things this way - the outcast officials would have let it slide without comms. Apparently they didn't do so.

Of course it was ignored, it would be suicidal for TAZ to do the very same things on their ships because they'd have to face the consequences directly; it's not something Maltese can ignore lore-wise, but because it's a base doing the wetwork and at the same turn a certain brand of forum RP is promoted as a totally delusional oorp excuse for the base's actions, it slides.

There was an incident and they paid attention to it. The two parties resorted to diplomacy, agreeing that such things won't happen next and everybody went on their ways. It seems that this resolution is not of your liking and that is why you are doing this crusade against Mal Fp.

Aye, but in another thread Rachel Baker told me that there's no room for dissent within the ID/faction system - where does that leave me as a player when my character has leaders that clearly and evidently don't give a damn about their roots, background and citizens, and he is oorply forced to just be fine with that? It screws over people's RP and characters totally when deals are just done like that and we have to blindly accept it.

Much easier to avoid such situations by just applying common sense when performing hostile actions. In fact, I think that in spirit this is what factions partially vow themselves to with the excellence thing.

Again, we got to the part where we need to make difference between inRP and ooRP.

Yes, that's why I made the distinction to begin with.

I am annoyed that my character is forcefully shaped by official factions, when the reason and rational impact of their actions can be severely questioned by existing lore, however justified those actions are if looked at from solely one angle, namely that Baffin is TAZ sovereign territory.

That is where I think Official Factions have that special obligation to take into consideration the full scope of possible consequences of their actions, and show temperance and maturity. Not set neutral bases to kill all...