So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much?

[Thyrzul]

Voicing your skepticims and pointing the finger at them every time is not helpful. That's why forums are useless for something like this. There will always be a Thyr who can make every progress look like it was worthless.

Skepticism is pretty helpful to avoid another backstab you may get for lowering your guard. And I don't want any progress look like worthless, I am just saying that in this case people have to be cautious, which basically applies to every case in which a group gets approached by a surprising turn of events triggered by people they don't trust and would certainly not expect to seriously act as how they decided to display themselves.

Caution is important. Any time. Every time.

The fact that ZA gave away deep secrets of Zoner factions behind their backs also questions their credibility, even if the involved parties only know about it ooRPly.

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[Arioch]

Haven't really chimed in, as I am more content watching this unfold while keeping away as much as I can (Yes, there are times I was involved)

Seriously, now with their latest stunt, pulling all 3 Zoner offiicals into the dirt by powergaming ist another evidence, although I have to admit, a smart one.

Then

http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=101239

In the same day. With one hand they rat out ALL Official Zoners inRP, then turn around and inRP use the other hand to ask for forgiveness:

i feel responsible for what happend, though in some actions we were justified in defending ourselves.

The inRP reasoning baffles me. Asking for forgiveness, but trying to screw TAZ, Phoenix, and OSI over. There will be inRP consequences should they find out inRP, no one can dispute that. Nor can you say that it should/will be ignored. It will have drastic inRP repercussions. Zoners have contacts all over inRP, so I HIGHLY doubt inRP that all 3 Zoner groups will not hear about how they tried to rat us out. If all three Zoner factions and Order and AI agree to talks now that ZA have lowered their guns so to speak, what will happen INRP when they find out ZA tried to backstab them? You can't expect the factions to continue on with talks. It is a dick move, and not a single one of you can deny that.

Now, on the flip side, I am tired of seeing this endless fight inRP and ooRP. I don't agree with the ZA and their actions at all. But as the official groups, we can't stoop to the "No RP we are at war" (Forgive the quote) when they made a move that would enable peace talks. Still not forgetting the backstabbing with LN and RH. But we should see how that plays out inRP.

I am in favor of talks, BUT there will be steep demands due to everything that has happened before. And if Zoners find out inRP about the above, the stakes will be higher and the demands increased, if not abandoned all together. No one can deny that, no can turn their backs to what just happened. I just want to see how this gets sorted out INRP.

I have plenty of reason to hate what the ZA have done and what I have witnessed personally. It angers me, yes. Makes me frustrated, and make me wish with one command the bases could vanish and the alt pirates who just log to troll people would leave. But that is not Disco, and everything must be handled inRP. So, inrp as my character in the Phoenix would say, "Alright lads- Lets jus talk it over an drink, a'ight?"

If though, the ZA are up for talks, but then continue the RP of LN and RH discussions to get them to go against the Zoners (Won't happen, but we will see), and the Zoners find out (inRP of course), then they will be justified in any inRP action against them. Zoners should not and would not do that to their own people who were trying to get out of House space, whatever their reasons. The fact that the ZA has contacted houses for aid again baffles me, as that is not what Zoners would do, especially to other Zoners. But again, I am willing to see how it plays out inRP, despite how oorp/against lore it is.

I just want to drink and be merry and be a Zoner without all this bull****

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[Quiron]

That, sir, is called good PR. You make yourself look good, and you make your opponents look bad. Turn those letters around and that spells RP - exactly what everybody wanted, right? And I don't have to be an expert on Zoners and Zoner lore to see that you people seriously screwed yourselves up, both inRP and ooRP, and the rest of server is paying the price.

Now, if you want to take your RP to the next level besides pointing fingers and whining about each other on forums, I suggest you take Jack's advice and actually talk (I would add, LISTEN as well) to one another. Don't go into a negotiation expecting to get everything you want. You make your demands known, and then you see what the other side wants. If you can reach a reasonable middle ground, then that's where you begin the negotiation. You don't throw out an ultimatum and then say "oh well we tried," especially if you're not actually capable of following through with your threats (which you're apparently not in-game).

Make us all proud and try to take care of this as civilized people instead of adolescents.

So, I should whine in every single part of the forum both in and ooRP just to have a good PR? Thanks for the info, noted. Also, I won't start this argue again, we have tried to talk with them a lot of time, you seem missed that point. And no, our first demand wasn't that to decommission their bases.
To be honest, I am getting tired of this whole situation, that is the only reason I would give up my char's inRP idea about how to solve this matter.

By the way, you don't have to tell me how to negotiate, thanks. Somewhat that's my job.

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[Mercarryn]

Why should it be ignored? It is a huge diplomatic attack against the major Zoner groups definitely to make things even worse. Endangering the Zoner diplomacy in a whole. So when they are doing something bad, it should be ignored now? They don't have to face the consequences of their inRP decisions? And after that they are making an announcement how good guys they are neutralizing their stations. Kudos to them, really.

I have a feeling that defending ZA and making them martyrs slowly become a fashion amongst some people who doesn't know this whole situation deeply or make conclusions with half-informations, while the opposition parties turned into the evil aggressors who love to bully the poor, peaceful and decent ZA.

That, sir, is called good PR. You make yourself look good, and you make your opponents look bad. Turn those letters around and that spells RP - exactly what everybody wanted, right? And I don't have to be an expert on Zoners and Zoner lore to see that you people seriously screwed yourselves up, both inRP and ooRP, and the rest of server is paying the price.

Now, if you want to take your RP to the next level besides pointing fingers and whining about each other on forums, I suggest you take Jack's advice and actually talk (I would add, LISTEN as well) to one another. Don't go into a negotiation expecting to get everything you want. You make your demands known, and then you see what the other side wants. If you can reach a reasonable middle ground, then that's where you begin the negotiation. You don't throw out an ultimatum and then say "oh well we tried," especially if you're not actually capable of following through with your threats (which you're apparently not in-game).

Make us all proud and try to take care of this as civilized people instead of adolescents.

Well, when I at least tried to set up negotiations and had set up some terms on our side, there was not even one comment from the ZA that showed me they wanted to talk and bargain for that agreement. Hell, if they had done, it would have shown they want to solve that, too. Instead the tl;dr answer: "Nope"

Now this step by them to set the stations to zoner IFF again. From my 141|'s point of view? I am scecpital if any truce that migth come out will hold really long, but on the other hand, I want to get my guys to concentrate on other issues again - like nomads.

[GTB]

Wouldn't it be best to buy your time and give ZA the benefit of the doubt, no matter how sceptical you are about them. Stop attacking them and their bases while they've set them to neutral and given them Zoner IFF, along with saying anyone is welcome in the system. If you do that and they keep things that way, then that would be the end of the war and things can go back to normal.

The problem now, and ZA are quite clever doing it. If any other Zoner factions was to attack their bases since they done this "as an act of solving things" and bringing peace back into O74, all it will do is make you look the trouble making culprits (not ZA). So just play along with them for now and see what happens.

[Arioch]

If you do that and they keep things that way, then that would be the end of the war and things can go back to normal.

So just play along with them for now and see what happens.

That's what we are intending/doing as the Phoenix. Acknowledging that they made a step to end this war, and allowing them an inRP chance to right a lot of the wrongs and hopefully ensure this is the last time everyone gets all derpy and pew pew (Well, in this instance). They turned up a lot of stones, so it will take some work and a lot of compromises to get back to where it/everyone should have been: United against Nomads and acting like Neutral Zoners.

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[Jack_Henderson]

Guys, chill about the Zoner-Order leak story.

There have been worse revelations about factions' "unknown" but dirty sides and the only case in which faction diplomacy changed was the OSI-Rheinland incident, in which the OSI leadership accepted the development and - as I am told - actually wanted it that way.

I think the fear of "All Zoners will be red to Houses!" is unfounded. If it was that easy, my faction would be red to everybody and their stepmothers and pets, as well as every neutral faction would be auto-red to all Houses because of some screwup that simply happens sometimes.

Relax.
Look at it as an opportunity for rp.
Even though it is not the cool type of rp... believe me, as IMG I know that. It normally involves numbers followed by 6 to 8 zeros in fees plus some other things that are rather uncomfortable.

But still: Houses will not simply say "Baaaam! U Zonurz <3 terrorists! Baaaaam! FR5 on Zoner ID!" because actually there are sane players and FR5s (if they were filed, which I highly doubt) have to be passed to the Admins. And they would not agree with it, likely, as it would change the lore in more than one way for many many players.

And perhaps one little statement about my "skypelancer" comment: I do not say that I condone it. I just -know- that the discussion about it has already happened. Faction leaders talking about it, checking what the backgrounds are, checking on the context and how to proceed actually makes sense. I just worded it a little controversly because at the time I wrote it, this process was happening, and I found it funny.

I bet, the damage for Zoners will be temporary and it will be possible to cope with the fallout, in case the message is not rejected because of the oorp drama behind the whole thing.

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[Quiron]

I wasn't worried about ZA exposing the major Zoner groups. As you said, it could bring interesting RP. The thing I didn't understand was why should it be ignored if this will be found out inRP. Let them face the consequences of their inRP decisions.

To be honest, I was shocked when I saw that move from them. Maybe it is understandable that they wanted bad for Phoenix or Solar, but TAZ or OSI havent done anything wrong with them if I remember well.

Anyway, it's irrelevant now. There will be peace at last it seems, from our side, good luck for them in their further businesses. I'll try to ignore them completely in and ooRP as well. Don't wanna be dragged into this mess again.

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[Thyrzul]

Wouldn't it be best to buy your time and give ZA the benefit of the doubt, no matter how sceptical you are about them. Stop attacking them and their bases while they've set them to neutral and given them Zoner IFF, along with saying anyone is welcome in the system. If you do that and they keep things that way, then that would be the end of the war and things can go back to normal.

The problem now, and ZA are quite clever doing it. If any other Zoner factions was to attack their bases since they done this "as an act of solving things" and bringing peace back into O74, all it will do is make you look the trouble making culprits (not ZA). So just play along with them for now and see what happens.

Just imagine the following scenario: Despite how ZA claim attackers to be ineffective, they eventually indeed ran out of regens and their bases are eventually getting close to destruction. They want to avoid this and try to fake peaceful intentions and offer for peace, which if the other party will accept, will bring them time to resupply and gather their strengths again, just to continue the war and further claim ridiculous things for themselves with renewed power.

This scenario is a hypothetical one, and I admit, yes, it is pretty much a negative and distrustful view on the possible outcome of the upcoming events, but it is still a valid scenario as ZA have already given precedent for similar backstabbing (reigniting war after like two weeks, like nothing have changed), and in such times it is just logical of Phoenix to consider such scenarios to happen and expect such moves from an opponent they could barely trust any less by now.

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[GTB]

I see your point, it could be used as a way to re-stock their base levels back up again. Give them some breathing space to do it for a week or two, then go back to before. But the thing is, they've posted on forums about doing this for a peaceful solution. So if they change again in a weeks time "for no valid reason", then this time around everyone can see ZA for what they really are.

But you don't know that, and without base access you cannot check their stock levels of fuel to know e.t.c. So even if other Zoner factions suspected that was the case and didn't stop shooting the bases, they cannot prove it and would still come out looking the bad guys. So better other Zoner factions play along for now and see if things do change with ZA in a week or two, I don't see how they have any other option really? Attacking now after what ZA have said and done with the bases, it would only end up making other Zoner factions look at fault.

That's what I think anyhow, other Zoner factions have nothing to lose by saying "OK, we'll play along with you for now, see if you stick to your word or not". If they don't, then back to World War III again. Ha!