(11-24-2013, 11:30 PM)FallenKnight Wrote: @Omicega, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I would like to inform you that we've been notified about this incident in Magellan early. It seems you are correct that GRN (in 7 ships) were attacking this lone dunkirk and it happens that the LNS around him simply decided to help him with their own regens.
With all due to respect but so far there is nothing even close to "abusement" of the system as long as these LNS capital ships were NOT retreating to refill and bring back more b/b. If it's true that you were 7 then what is the problem to fight 3-4 caps with no regens? Even if all of them give him their own resources, they would be vulnerable to your attacks. In theory you nearly killed them all.
Also, thank you again for using the blank system. We will further discuss this with Conqueror and will do our best to bring you better interractions with BAF|. But I will ask you about one thing - please dont allow your emotions to overthrow your judgment because its clear, from your info, that you are angry of something that is not a direct abuse of the game mechanics.
(In RP none LNS or LN would watch 1 dunkirk get blown by 7 bombers)
There's more around but it should give you an idea of what's going on.
I'll ask you a painfully direct question, Fallen. Do you care in the least for the experience of the side roleplaying as your enemy (the GRN in this case)? This is a simple yes/no question, I require no elaboration. If it's a yes, then that attitude is singularly unhelpful towards assuring a fun experience for both sides. If the GRN goofs up, ring me up and we'll sort it out, but we expect you to do the same.
Of course, if the answer is a no, then we'll respond in kind. Turning the other cheek is impossible.
Quote:No disrespect to you Omicega I see your point of it being annoying trying to kill a Dunkirk or any cap being botfed in a fight but in fairness your side does it too.
I for one have come to accept this fact as part of the game for e.g. the Punishers Valor callsign DeathGlinder is a prolific Bot Feeder / Bot Sucker. When ever I have fought him with HMS Argosax or LNS Illustrious on every occasion I have faced him and nearly killed him he has either ran away at 5% hull to Stokes Mining Station to refill (off scanners) and then rengage or he has been bot fed by other GRN / RNS ships.
I now use my Jumpship capable LAC to botfeed allies in battle because of this fact / imbalance.
Instead of complaining about a BAF| who does what everyone else is doing perhaps a bit of tactical thinking is in order!
Switch targets from the BAF| to those who are feeding him and you'll find the enemies you are shooting are dry because getting everyone to supply the Dunkirk you have in fact drained everyone else thus making it easier to pick of the weaker targets!
The Conqueror was an official tagged ship. The Punishers clearly are not. As for your spiel about tactical thinking and "Roleplay"...Roleplay isn't something to be pulled out as an excuse when it plays to your side's advantage and to be promptly discarded when it no longer does.
Both sides should play with consideration of each other's fun, and that's why we like to promote duels and staying out of stupidly imbalanced fights even though it's not entirely logical inRP to do so. The Other side deserves to have fun as much as we do, and that's the philosophy I prefer to adhere to. Of course, you may differ...but don't expect people to respect you for it.
Clearly you don't understand how fights like this works. Let me explain the situation to you.
However many bombers and fighters we had. Lets say 10 for a good round number.
There was at least 15+ fighters and snubs on top of the capital ships. These range from Guardians to Libbies to Upholders to that one renzu fighter that was full dodge and made me sad.
We cannot focus capitals in this situation. We have fighters on us constantly. It's how it rolls. The capitals hardly stayed in the main fight. Most broke off to Mag to restock or to join in some other pew. That's fine, fighting a bunch of snubs in a capital ship is no fun. Completely understandable.
You also have to put in lag. The server was on full lag mode. Sliding around every two seconds was not enjoyable but hey. We were going spartan.
Now Black Widow, PvP expert of all that is Disco, Maybe now you'll understand why we could not just target one capital. We cannot shoot down ships that feed themselves. I don't even care about feeding personally, it's just basically voids caps as targets. So we shoot the snubs. And given the situation, we killed quite a lot.
I don't care about the feeding or whatever most people are complaining about here, but stating what we should of done in a situation like this isn't that clever. We did what we should of done. And that's target snubs.
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First. It wasn't seven Cougars, so can we stop pretending it was? At peak, there were four or five. The others were Lynxes - full hullbuster Lynxes, in all likelihood - which obviously wouldn't target a capital ship if there are (half) a dozen snubcraft to deal with at the same time.
I personally ran out of Cruise Disruptors just trying to keep all the feeding capitals (including BlackWidow's here) put. LNS-Illustrious (or BlackWidow) was the very first to feed, and immediately attempted to cruise off (and restock, obviously). By the time he gave up on doing so, another four or five capitals had arrived on the LN / Bretonian side. Obviously he didn't have to run and restock anymore given how horribly outnumbered the GRN side was by that point.
Now, again, I kind of enjoyed going spartan on ten or so capitals (and an equal number of smaller ships) in Leeds. Raids aren't a bad thing. But when you already outnumber your opponent by such a giant margin, is it truly necessary to also deny them the ability to kill anything by simply feeding for an eternity?
If the answer to this is "Yes", then.. well, I did think BAF| was above that kind of play. Any house Navy should be. Any official faction, really. Pulling the "your indies do it too" argument is childish at best - we're not complaining about LNS or HMS indies here either.
I'll just make a statement somewhat for the good of Bretonia that Blackwidow is not speaking on behalf of the BAF here, just as the pilot of the HMS-Argosax and however his LN ships are currently named.
Let Fallen/Xelon/Thunderer/Pacific speak for their faction in whatever way they choose.
(11-25-2013, 03:40 PM)SummerMcLovin Wrote: I'll just make a statement somewhat for the good of Bretonia that Blackwidow is not speaking on behalf of the BAF here, just as the pilot of the HMS-Argosax and however his LN ships are currently named.
Let Fallen/Xelon/Thunderer/Pacific speak for their faction in whatever way they choose.
Im not speaking on behalf of anyone..... I am...... actually you know what Im not even gonna bother defend your side anymore, dig your own grave 8(. what a half baked reply you just gave
I will make a reply on behalf of the Bretonian Armed Forces faction as Representative and Leader of the Auxiliary Forces (BAF|A).
Thank you for bringing this incident to our attention, and i hope you do not take Black Widows words as our own. He is not a part of the BAF| nor does he speak on behalf of us. Black Widow, we ask you do not reply here, and keep your own posts as feedback from now on please.
As for the initial post regarding this incident, thank you for bringing that to my attention. BAF|A ships are my responsibility, and i have spoken with the player behind Conqueror. He is aware that Bot feeding is frowned upon, and will try to avoid such situations in the future.
A comment that he made at one point to me, is that he does try to avoid them, but you do get indies who threaten to just drop them anyways. You can't allow your opponent to get the bots/bats can you? Regardless of this situation, he is aware, and appologises for having to take regens numerous times.
As for the number of bombers, he still claims it to be 7. Whilst this fact is disputed by either side, we can not take one word over another until sufficient evidences from both sides are shown. Please understand my situation here and provide the evidence so we can review it.
In all, situation has been talked over with the player in question. He is made aware, and has been warned to avoid bot sharing in that situation, and the only time where we would allow such (Cap battle where caps share with each other only, for example).
Hopefully this clears all up for you. This unfortuantely started to turn into alot of rage. If anything needs answering, PM me and i'll add it to the end of this post.
As for future feedback, please return to the blank system. Thank you for your feedback.
...BAF feedback thread will use a "blank" system which will allow us to act swiftly and more accurate in dealing with problems inside the faction. It will also reduce the length of the discussion in these important threads as well as the misunderstanding, insults, scam and etc.
All you need to do is fill the blank and we will handle the rest. The more information you give us, the better...
I would like you all to keep the things clear and follow the guidence of how to post in this thread. I will also ask a "group" of people that decides to sign in a blank with complaint to choose someone to represent it. In that way discussions will be between 2 people not 10. This thread was not supposed to turn in to "discussion" but a problem to be stated and let the official faction handle it.
Random people being participating in this incident coming here with different opinions and requesting personal satisfaction or simply discussing stuff NOT related to BAF| - in this case LNS/LN ships and their actions...are out of this thread and will not be considered. The last thing BAF| will do is to order on its allies how to raid, when, with how many and what to do. Please deliver your problems with LNS and LN to the corresponding faction feedbacks.
Now I will drop some answers to Omicega, Haste and Rodent. After that I will ask you to calm down and let us handle our problems. It is not sarcastic that I said "thank you for informing us about this" - in fact a problem can only be solved if delivered on the table.
@Omicega, you are fully aware that your interpretation of this incident is coming from your point of view. Conqueror's version is similar to yours. Sadly it happens that in this situation none of you, BAF|A-HMS-Conqueror and GRN|Katsuko.Komatsu, have provided us with Images of the incident(Rodent's images are from Leeds raid - no part of this topic). I will not follow the logic of some people around "SS or didnt happen" and I will not take side because I was simply not there. What I promised you to do is already done - I have talked with Conqueror and possibly such things may not happen again, depending on the enemy numbers and the situation only.
- since you were talking about "capital ship bot feeding", I will tell you this - Since .85 during Kusari war, we've done a non written rule where it was stated that "No cap should feed a figther with regens". Nevertheless this rule does not count for the opposite - "Capital ships may give regens to other capital ships only". These two rules are BAF| primary goals since 5 years and only sometimes people are breaking them and belive me - most of them were punished in the past.
- you were talking about "sporting play" - in BAF| we dont order how our players to RP or PVP. They are free to decide when to retreat, when to duel(we dont recommend duels), when to take regens from collegues (fighters) or when not to.
- about the subject - Conqueror being attacked by these ships in a single cap is an overkill and any help coming would be good for him. Sadly the way Liberty indies have handled this "assistance" is indeed not the best. But even you would agree that if 1 battleship is under fire by ~7 ships - the player wont be able to talk, fight, ask in skype for help. My point is Conqueror could simply be NOT able to observe the situation like you. If you've noticed something wrong - SS and report it, people will react instantly. Again - the issues with Conqueror were handled. There is nothing else to discuss with you.
@Rodent, these images you have provided to us...I dont see any BAF| on it, except these 2 where Conqueror was in range but they are not enough to discribe the issue and possible abuse. I see colonials and liberty ships and if you think they've done something bad please forward this to their feedbacks.
- on your "direct question" I will answer you with this - Yes, I do. Gallia is not the first house to attack Bretonia. The same issues we had and possible may have in future with GRN| will be similar to those we had with KNF|. We have created rules with KNF| back then in order to encourage the fairplay and overall interactions between BAF| and KNF|. Two of the rules you can see above, at my respond to Omicega. Also GRN| had many leaders and with all of them I personally did a try to work out a good fairplay. With Dab, Wolf, Jeremy. I hope Jeremey mentioned something about this. This may not be enough proof but I will add that during .86 I've been on the field of nearly every GRN vs BAF battle (when you were not yet a leader of GRN) and I was there observing only - spreading fairplay, keeping capital ships on hold or some eagerly to fight players to wait if someone from BAF dies. I think you got my point that none of my intentions so far are to ruin someone's fun but quite the opposite. That is why I am here in order to solve such problems instead...to create them.
- About your statement that Conqueror is official taged ship - Yes, he is but dont forget the "A", BAF|A-HMS are Auxiliary fleet of inRP young cadets being quickly promoted to field captains due to lack of men. In OORP - the simple explanation is "trusted indies, good in RP and PVP who cant spent 2 years to fly tagged cap". You may ask yourself why i tell you this? Well, all Auxiliary capital ships are not as trained as standard BAF|HMS players, being in the faction for years. My point is - these people are expected to do some mistakes but we are ready to take responsibility for them and do our best to improve them.
- About the fun you were talking about - yes, both sides should have fun instead to spread something else. Nevertheless, BAF was always following the Lore RP and inspired by it - delivered ingame actions. That's how it was and shall be because thats the faction's RP. Duels are illogical, unless both players decide to engage in one. Forcing people to duel is not part of any BAF| official law and never will be. Just because player A is better than player B and A would want to duel B and B refuses - that doesnt mean BAF|B is stupid, cant deliver fun and is breaking rules. That is why we simply dont recommend duels because they are not following the RP and in most cases, belive me, people DONT want to duel 20-30min. If GRN| would promote duels with anyone, thats honorable indeed but dont expect everyone to take such single challenges also dont treat with negativity those who refuse.
- About your statments - your "let us have some fun" is brought on the line with the possible blue message of Conqueror, is that it? Well just because it was 100% death for COnqueror, doesnt mean he have to shoot around for 2 min and die, just to make you all really damn happy of ganking a single dunkirk...right? He had chance to fight back and survive, thats the other side of the coin. Similar scenarios were done by GRN...but they've used Repair ShipS. Repair ship is considered as "Cheap way to win" but people are still using it. How many times BAF| used such a thing? Meaninglessly low and never to supply fighters. You could have considered that 1 repair ship assisted Conqueror and move on but you came here to accuse the entire faction of doing something really bad because you were unable to kill 1 cap and get some fun? What do you expect us to do? Why you havent answered that in the BLANK option - "Ask BAF players to die so we can have fun please"?
@Haste, from your info I see you mention BlackWidow on LNS-Illustrious. This player is not part of BAF| nor his ship is even close to Bretonia Armed Forces. I would not even bother with LNS especially if they are not our responsibility. They are also enemies to GRN, which means even if Conqueror was not there, they could do whatever they want, bot feed snubs if they want to - thats not our concern.
- About your statement of "four or five" cougars plus lynxes, since you also cant provide us with direct images pointing on the issue, I will just combine your story with that of Conqueror and jump to the conclussion he was a victim of a solid bomber assault and was supplied in order to survive by LNS. HOW LNS have delivered these resources, were they their own or someone retreated is NOT part of this subject.
- About your statement of few spartans vs "ten or so caps" - I will ask you a question: Why were you not retreating? If the answer is "We wanted to have some fun" then you would be fully aware of a scenario where you all or some will end up dead. If you were fine with that and proceeded further - anything else is NOT a problem for those that defend themselves. If you were expecting them to duel or something - they (the players) are not forced to accept the challenge and can simply forfeit. You said you enjoyed but your final wards are leading me to belive all you wanted was a Blue message..."is it truly necessary to also deny them the ability to kill anything by simply feeding for an eternity?" - That depends STRICTLY to the player's personal decission to GIVE you kill or NOT. Nobody in BAF would judge Conqueror about "Why he havent sacrificed himself so Haste could have REAL fun?". You simply admited all you wanted was to kill something.
- Haste, I am sorry that Conqueror survived. I guess we have to be sad that our allies saved one of our few remaining dunkirks in RP. Or perhaps next time we can do "illogical"things like Rodent suggested like forcing the player to die for the sake of other side fun.
Rodent, you as new leader to GRN will have to deal with some problems we've been handling since years. I will help you with anything - organisation, OORP rules of engaging between GRN and BAF (like we've done before), fairplay and stuff like that - but I will never order anyone from BAF to die for fun unless he wants it. I hope with this we can end this topic and move on.
Please use the new blank system, 1 blank with problem followed by 1 representative of the group or faction. We all will save a lot of time and unnecessary hostility.
/blank Complaining about bot feeding or ganking here is just useless, BAF are the people that invented that concept. For more info I suggest just to check the older complains in the same topic. There are 0 indications that anything changed in the said faction attitude in the last couple of years so does not waste your time../blank
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
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