Vigilantes | General Information and Feedback

[Omi]

We are actually trying to help.

Are you really, or do you just get off on rule-sharking people?

If I were them, I would proceed along their current line of work until told to do otherwise by someone whose opinion actually matters (i.e. an administrator).

They are using the Navy ID as a temporary workaround, because Disco's ID/technerf/whatever system is so inflexible that this is the only way they can do it without de-tagging their capital ship, which makes even less RP sense than the way they're doing it right now.

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[Thyrzul]

This actually is going to be a separate story, because it is quite difficult to explain briefly. In general, Lionel retired the Navy because of his grief after hearing the news about Bolshack's 'death'. He already has proven himself as the captain of the cruiser, so he was trusted. Also, most of the crew consisted of the Navy. If he would attempt causing problems in Liberty, this would trigger a civil war on the deck.

I guess it indeed must be difficult to explain briefly, because all I got are more and more questions. How the hell is he authorized to command a naval warship if he retired from the Navy, thus essentially being no more than a mere civilian in that regard? Proven his trustworthiness or not, warships aren't given to individuals, they are assigned under their command, but stay the property of the Navy. If you quit the Navy, you give it back. In case I am mistaken here, and things in the Liberty Navy go different than real life logic, any member of the official Liberty Navy faction, the Liberty Government, or any Developer can feel free to correct me at that.

My view is exactly the same as in the first post, The Navy ID is temporary, until the ship will have enough of a history to submit a request for Spec Ops ID.

Well, what I thought is that it's only necessary if a faction tries to go official, they need to have the unified IDs and IFFs. We aren't, not yet anyway.

For long I thought that the one-ID rule applies only to Official Factions, and I had to recheck it myself to see that it's specified nowhere in the rules. The one-ID-per-faction rule apparently applies to all kinds of factions.

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[Fuski]

Concerning the Victory Rush...

Everyone is overthinking the situation. Really.
If the Victory Rush is a flagship and mobile base of the Vigilantes, Then it doesn't technically need a tag. Manhattan doesn't have a tag showing LPI. Player bases don't need a tag. Just need an Identification like Long Island. It's not [LN] or =LSF= tagged. But we know who it belongs to. The Vigilantes know what the Victory Rush is. They know it's their base of operations. It doesn't need a Tag then.

That goes around the Rule base for factions needing one standing ID and gives Vigilantes their Flag Ship till an SRP comes in for it.

Problem solved.

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The.Cincinnati - Maverick O'Howell, Sylus, and 199 Family members.

[Corile]

If the Victory Rush is a flagship and mobile base of the Vigilantes, Then it doesn't technically need a tag. Manhattan doesn't have a tag showing LPI.

Battleship Missouri doesn't have LNS tag either, so are we now removing the LNS tags from the caps with docking capabilities?

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Reflections on the Revolution in Gallia
Custodi // High City of Heraklion // The Cult of Archangels
Log Filter // Post Creator // Manhattan

[Vigilantes]

Just a note that the story has actually been already written.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=117155

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[Thyrzul]

So you basically took the same tale you tried to tell us - that the Navy allowed one guy to buy a cap on his own, and have control over it like his own property - and put it into the mouth of the very same character, surrounded by other characters believing his story, and now expecting us to believe it's true? Sounds like a very cheap commercial with paid actors. You know, it won't sound more plausible or less illogical if you coat it with sugar roleplay.

Bolshack's incredible influence is what belongs to the Mary Sue category. Omg, so much connections he can do anything for anyone. No. Proven yourself in a snub already so Navy agrees to give you a cap prior to any training? No. Random nameless admiral in a snub (lol) appears, watches over one mission you apparently succeed at, and promotes you based on that only one mission he inspected? No. You resign from duty and the Navy just let you go with a massive piece of military technology which a) could be further used against Rheinland, b) nobody knows or have control over what you do, since you are a civilian now, not bound by Navy code and laws and c) nobody could stop you should you want to sell this technology? Hell no, this is not an exotic liner on the open market, could be bought by anybody with a deep enough pocket and a few connections here and there, this is a warship, a property of the Navy.

And creating a tricky situation where the crew is still part of the Navy but also under the command of a civilian captain isn't helping that. Even that looks like you'd want that character to have perks (being the captain of a naval warship, having command over naval crew) without the associated responsibilities (bound to naval code and conduct, bound to certain duties).

Mind me, I might look hostile given the wording of the above paragrapsh, but the things I listed above makes the story even less credible, plausible, logical and more and more Mary Sue I-want-all-goods-no-bads to me.

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[Vigilantes]

Bolshack's incredible influence is what belongs to the Mary Sue category. Omg, so much connections he can do anything for anyone.

This wasn't said anywhere in the story. He proposed a deal that would be very helpful to the Navy and risky to himself. Navy didn't have to spend taxpayers' money for building a cruiser and training. Bolshack would take responsibility for everything that would go wrong during Lionel's training process and had still to be available for assignments. Due to the fact, that tensions with Rheinland at that time weren't too high, his training could be finished in a year.

Proven yourself in a snub already so Navy agrees to give you a cap prior to any training?

This, again, was not said anywhere in the story. Lionel could not be in active service during his training or use the cruiser for any other purpose than training because this is not how it works.

Random nameless admiral in a snub (lol) appears, watches over one mission you apparently succeed at, and promotes you based on that only one mission he inspected?

Have you ever taken an exam? Once you go to any kind of school or course, you are being taught something for a set period of time and then you have to pass an exam to get a certificate, admission or whatever. This was exactly a similar situation. Also note that Bolshack still was a naval commander that oversaw the whole training.

You resign from duty and the Navy just let you go with a massive piece of military technology which a) could be further used against Rheinland, b) nobody knows or have control over what you do, since you are a civilian now, not bound by Navy code and laws and c) nobody could stop you should you want to sell this technology?

a) No, because this was a privately owned ship and therefore they couldn't just 'steal' it from him. If Lionel ever said that he leaves the Navy for good, it's the only moment they could take up the cruiser, but he never did.
b) He's not a civilian. He is still in the Navy, but not in active service. This cruiser is also facilely tracked by the Navy, so they still can access the information about its whereabouts at any point in time and communicate with it when it's not docked.
c) Yeah, nobody, but the crew and pretty much anyone on the Norfolk shipyard where the cruiser is docked (this is a roleplay limitation, that Kosciusko can not be logged out anywhere except Norfolk).

logical and more and more Mary Sue I-want-all-goods-no-bads to me.

Both of the Vigilante caps have specific roleplay limitations, so this is invalid. Kosciusko cannot dock anywhere but Norfolk except for resupply, while Victory Rush cannot dock anywhere, period.

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[Thyrzul]

This wasn't said anywhere in the story.

'Yeah.' Lionel took a smoke from his pipe. 'Bolshack was an incredibly influential person...

He proposed a deal that would be very helpful to the Navy and risky to himself. Navy didn't have to spend taxpayers' money for building a cruiser and training. Bolshack would take responsibility for everything that would go wrong during Lionel's training process and had still to be available for assignments. Due to the fact, that tensions with Rheinland at that time weren't too high, his training could be finished in a year.

For that donation to fund a whole warship I guess the Navy have been grateful, but that still does not justify giving it away once the captain resigned from duty. It's not the LPI what you can buy for money, or a PMC, it's still a House Navy. And then if political tensions require quicker training, I'd expect less time spent on learning having a negative effect on performance. If normally learning things would require years, learning everything in a year seems to be... rushed... Is the decrease in performance a risk worthy to be taken by the Navy?

This, again, was not said anywhere in the story.

...and I had already proven myself as a pilot of a snub in the Academy. So with that, they agreed.

And oh well, they gave him a cap to train with. I didn't say he had no training, but if he already have the cap, he sure got it prior to training. Although I'd expect trainings to start with simulators, getting to real caps once the trainee shown some skills at not wrecking the ship in the first five minutes, but hey, this one was from his own cash, why shouldn't we let him waste it? Well... because of war, maybe?

Have you ever taken an exam? Once you go to any kind of school or course, you are being taught something for a set period of time and then you have to pass an exam to get a certificate, admission or whatever. This was exactly a similar situation. Also note that Bolshack still was a naval commander that oversaw the whole training.

Where I live exams of such magnitude are overseen by multiple people, not just one or two, and I'd expect a Navy to make sure you have learnt everything you've been taught, and judge performance based on multiple reports about multiple patrols, operations, and various other kinds of duties. Not one mission on one occasion, witnessed by two people from which one is kinda concerned in the outcome. I'd expect the Navy to thoroughly examine the knowledge and skill of a trainee before sending them out to active duty. Bolshack being a naval commander isn't helping either, as he was responsible for Lionel, Lionel's success is in his favor, making him unable to be an objective judge during the exam.

a) No, because this was a privately owned ship and therefore they couldn't just 'steal' it from him. If Lionel ever said that he leaves the Navy for good, it's the only moment they could take up the cruiser, but he never did.

Privately owned is the issue here. I don't think any Libertonian warship is a property of anybody else than the Liberty Navy, Liberty Security Forces, Liberty Police Inc. or the Liberty Government. As I said, it's not an open market vessel you can buy for only an amount of credits.

b) He's not a civilian. He is still in the Navy, but not in active service. This cruiser is also facilely tracked by the Navy, so they still can access the information about its whereabouts at any point in time and communicate with it when it's not docked.

Up until this point I was convinced you intended to roleplay him quitting the Navy as all your roleplay seemed to support that, especially these:

Archer decided to leave as well and take his Cruiser with him. Surprisingly, his superiors weren't causing him any problems.

I was not limited by naval directives and whatnot.

Calling it civilian or not changes nothing on the fact that he is seemingly free of responsibility while commanding a capital grade warship. Allowing such to happen has never been, isn't and will never be in favor of House navies. The "foreign warship policies" included in house laws exist pretty much for keeping house space free from capital ships not controlled by the house navies.

But then if that's not the case, and he is simply in reserve, then say that. Learn the difference between resigned and in reserve. The first means he quit completely and out of the bounds of the navy, the second means he is currently not in active duty but still "limited by naval directives and whatnot". Although being in reserve still not justify considering the vessel a private property.

c) Yeah, nobody, but the crew and pretty much anyone on the Norfolk shipyard where the cruiser is docked (this is a roleplay limitation, that Kosciusko can not be logged out anywhere except Norfolk).

Again, who orders the crew around? The commander of the ship or the Navy? Orders coming from each should not conflict eachother, which would be ensured by binding the captain to naval directives, but if you want to roleplay a captain free of them and create a situation where your preferences conflict the ones of the Navy, what would you do? How would you roleplay the crew, who's side they gonna take?

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[Vigilantes]

This wasn't said anywhere in the story.

'Yeah.' Lionel took a smoke from his pipe. 'Bolshack was an incredibly influential person...

Let me make this a bit more precise: it wasn't said anywhere that he could do anything. He had connections that would allow him to propose such thing and not be rejected immediately, but actually thought through.

And then if political tensions require quicker training, I'd expect less time spent on learning having a negative effect on performance. If normally learning things would require years, learning everything in a year seems to be... rushed... Is the decrease in performance a risk worthy to be taken by the Navy?

Excuse me?

And oh well, they gave him a cap to train with. I didn't say he had no training, but if he already have the cap, he sure got it prior to training. Although I'd expect trainings to start with simulators, getting to real caps once the trainee shown some skills at not wrecking the ship in the first five minutes, but hey, this one was from his own cash, why shouldn't we let him waste it? Well...

This makes no sense whatsoever. After Navy accepting Bolshack's proposition, Lionel funded the ship construction and began his training. When you get your driver's license, are you instantly put into the driver seat and ordered to drive around town? Also, why should the navy think what you said in the last sentence? They still spent the time to construct the ship so it would be in their best interest to have it useful.

Calling it civilian or not changes nothing on the fact that he is seemingly free of responsibility while commanding a capital grade warship.

This was in the context of having any technology mounted on the ship, again, provided it was funded from Lionel's own pocket. This had nothing to do with ship's commandment.

Again, who orders the crew around? The commander of the ship or the Navy? Orders coming from each should not conflict eachother, which would be ensured by binding the captain to naval directives, but if you want to roleplay a captain free of them and create a situation where your preferences conflict the ones of the Navy, what would you do? How would you roleplay the crew, who's side they gonna take?

This, again, makes no sense whatsoever. Captain of the cruiser is just the one taking decisions on the fly. The crew is given a specific set of guidelines from the Navy that they must obey and have the right not to accept the orders that stay in the contrary with these guidelines.

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[Apollon]

This, again, makes no sense whatsoever. Captain of the cruiser is just the one taking decisions on the fly. The crew is given a specific set of guidelines from the Navy that they must obey and have the right not to accept the orders that stay in the contrary with these guidelines.

All orders come up from people above and high command, you don't simply fly to Rheinland on your own in a capital ship, nor a simple fighter.
Having 'Lionel' funding his own capital ship, even if that's true, doesn't give an excuse for him to be free of Naval directives, crew even the captain must obey higher-ups and high commands orders, even if they're off the guidelines. They can refuse to obey in-case it's not useful and for the good of the house, battle, or the war.