Can you sanction against wall running?

[lIceColon]

Let me try to put things into perspective:

1) No player enters the game with an inrp motive, because nobody is an actual spaceship captain.
2) Everyone uses inrp actions to achieve our oorp motives, whatever they are. Usually its just to enjoy the game.
3) And as long as our inrp actions are within the scope of rules, then they cannot and should not be sanctioned for.

You cannot decide that a certain archetype MUST behave a certain way when there are a million appropriate reasons they can choose otherwise, why maybe my trader captain wants to spite your pirate captain, and would go to the edge of space to do so, ta da RP justified!

---

No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[lIceColon]

So if I understand this right, the issue is not that people flee from pirates into empty space, but that they die when doing so?

Is this not an issue of game mechanics rather than roleplay?

Would it be acceptable for you for traders to flee into empty space if there was no system boundary?

Personally I would be fine with that. But a certain OP of a certain qq post would probably then qq on about "server restart running"

---

No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Lythrilux]

So if I understand this right, the issue is not that people flee from pirates into empty space, but that they die when doing so?

Is this not an issue of game mechanics rather than roleplay?

Would it be acceptable for you for traders to flee into empty space if there was no system boundary?

No. The point is that traders are doing it deliberately to spite pirates. There's no RP justifications for doing so. Removing the system wall would probably make it even less acceptable because then the trader could just run infinitely and would have the possibility to waste as much time as possible.

Let me try to put things into perspective:

1) No player enters the game with an inrp motive, because nobody is an actual spaceship captain.

Well duh. But we adapt to play the roles we choose.

2) Everyone uses inrp actions to achieve our oorp motives, whatever they are. Usually its just to enjoy the game.

Depends. This may be news to you but people actually play the game and RP with the intent to expand upon the stories of their own characters.

3) And as long as our inrp actions are within the scope of rules, then they cannot and should not be sanctioned for.

But technically wall running might not be within the scope of the rules, because it's trolling the other player.
Generally that's also a pretty stupid statement. It implies I could get away with a plethora of lolwutty, immersion breaking and generally stupid RP as long as a I stick to the rules. However, thankfully there have been multiple cases of such where the staff have come down hard on them.

You cannot decide that a certain archetype MUST behave a certain way when there are a million appropriate reasons they can choose otherwise, why maybe my trader captain wants to spite your pirate captain, and would go to the edge of space to do so, ta da RP justified!

Not at all though, because you're headed to a wall where you're going to explode. That doesn't make any sense. And trying to justify ooRP spite in and RP way is disgusting.
Let me put it in another perspective: If I wanted to spite traders, I would demand 20+ million from each regardless of their cargo. Is that healthy RP for the server you think?

So if I understand this right, the issue is not that people flee from pirates into empty space, but that they die when doing so?

Is this not an issue of game mechanics rather than roleplay?

Would it be acceptable for you for traders to flee into empty space if there was no system boundary?

Personally I would be fine with that. But a certain OP of a certain qq post would probably then qq on about "server restart running"

Yes, I definitely would because that's still an awful detriment to server gameplay.

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For your own credibility, I really suggest you stop trying to justify your ooRP spite towards players of a specific group. It really doesn't help balance this argument.

And, like you said, you don't play pirate characters. You cannot argue here without being extremely one-sided.

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[lIceColon]

2) Everyone uses inrp actions to achieve our oorp motives, whatever they are. Usually its just to enjoy the game.

Depends. This may be news to you but people actually play the game and RP with the intent to expand upon the stories of their own characters.

This may be news for you as well, but "the intent to expand upon the stories of their own characters" is in fact an OORP motive.

3) And as long as our inrp actions are within the scope of rules, then they cannot and should not be sanctioned for.

But technically wall running might not be within the scope of the rules, because it's trolling the other player.
Generally that's also a pretty stupid statement. It implies I could get away with a plethora of lolwutty, immersion breaking and generally stupid RP as long as a I stick to the rules. However, thankfully there have been multiple cases of such where the staff have come down hard on them.

Perhaps given the anti-lawyering stance of this server, but then it comes down to the admin team's discretion, not yours. Running to the system wall is part of running in the opposite direction, and that is completely inrp.

You cannot decide that a certain archetype MUST behave a certain way when there are a million appropriate reasons they can choose otherwise, why maybe my trader captain wants to spite your pirate captain, and would go to the edge of space to do so, ta da RP justified!

Not at all though, because you're headed to a wall where you're going to explode.

The system wall does NOT (currently) exist in rp.

Let me put it in another perspective: If I wanted to spite traders, I would demand 20+ million from each regardless of their cargo. Is that healthy RP for the server you think?

Here, take my cargo, oh wait I just destroyed it damn I guess you'll just have to kill me, to be honest I'm sick of your bullying every goddam time and I would rather die than continue to succumb to your tyranny.
and then you would make another qq post banning traders from destroying their own cargo.

So if I understand this right, the issue is not that people flee from pirates into empty space, but that they die when doing so?

Is this not an issue of game mechanics rather than roleplay?

Would it be acceptable for you for traders to flee into empty space if there was no system boundary?

Personally I would be fine with that. But a certain OP of a certain qq post would probably then qq on about "server restart running"

Yes, I definitely would because that's still an awful detriment to server gameplay.

Again, it takes two to tango.

For your own credibility, I really suggest you stop trying to justify your ooRP spite towards players of a specific group. It really doesn't help balance this argument.

And, like you said, you don't play pirate characters. You cannot argue here without being extremely one-sided.

I would be extremely one sided if I were arguing for the sanction of wall chasing. "pirates who chase traders to the edge of the system where they explode, instead of letting them successfully slip away, even when they know that they are not going to recieve any loot or bounty they still continue chasing, I would call that trolling.
why do you hate traders so much.
if not then why are you trying to take their stuff? Why are you trying to prevent them from not giving you their stuff? and c'mon, RP is not the real reason. you just want free stuff for 'staking out' excuse me? that sounds very much like 'sitting on your ass at a choke spot'. you just want to spite the haulers because of your irrational hatred towards them." <-basically your rhetoric when used against you.

But, in the end I'm not the only one against whatever retardation you are proposing, so this rule change will not pass (unless you have the correct skypefriends, meh)

---

No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Wildkins]

As someone who plays both a plethora of unlawful / quasi-lawful characters and traders, I myself have never enjoyed nor partaken in "wall-running". I'd rather try to make it to the nearest base, or better yet, roleplay with the pirate (if they're the kind that roleplays back, not just 2mrdai, and even then, I'd just pay the 2 mil, because I'm still making plenty) then resort to running for a system wall where I'm just gonna die anyway.

However, that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with either side. While I don't enjoy it when people purposefully avoid me while I'm "pirating", or whatever, I can see why they do it. People who sit on lanes or routes and stop all traders, demanding a huge sum of money or killing them on the spot has disillusioned them from wanting to interact with pirates or people in general. Others simply want to make money and can't be bothered with sitting through text for fifteen minutes. Whatever the reason, many people don't want to be stopped by a pirate out of fear or some other reasoning. I don't think we should be able to sanction someone just because they don't want to interact, even though it's been ruled that way in the past (I can't remember the sanctions, but there were a few for purposefully ignoring present roleplay and making every attempt to evade).

The purpose of the rules is to remove anything that is toxic or harmful to the community or the gameplay experience as a whole. Is system wall running toxic or harmful? Doubtful. At most, it's a trader attempting to waste as much time as possible or hoping that the pirate will realize the waste and run off, so the trader can get back to trading. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the end of the day, it isn't significantly harming your experience of the game and thus doesn't fit under privy of the rules. Roleplay reasoning and the argument of what is inRP and ooRP aside, it's perfectly legitimate in my eyes.

The other standing argument is the one of the pirate's. That pirates are starved for roleplay or piracy opportunities (whichever one it is you seek) because of system wall runners or what have you. Personally, through all my piracy in the Taus, Sigmas, Omegas, and even house space, I've only ever had someone system wall run once, and that wasn't even a trader, but a SHF. Most traders simply don't speak and run for the nearest dockable (which, y'know, whatever, more power to you I guess). That's just my experience, but talking to others who do the same thing, they've had very few people ever run for the wall because of how time consuming and relatively pointless it is. And while there are some times when I, myself, suffer from the "starvation" time when very few things pass by the route I'm on, I just go do something else. I've got multiple characters and games other than Discovery for that very reason, and sometimes you just need to go do something else (even if it's just piracy in another system, or trading, or bounty hunting, or what have you).

To sum things up, there really isn't a compelling argument for this to be a sanctionable offense because of two reasons: the relative improbability that any one trader will run for the system wall in an encounter, and the lack of any harm or problems that system wall running causes. At worst, you lose ten to fifteen minutes of your time. A good suggestion would be that, if you see someone running for the system wall, just let them go. They're probably not worth the time anyway, and it's not like you're gonna get anything from it except maybe a neutral blue message.

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RP Feedback

[Lythrilux]

This may be news for you as well, but "the intent to expand upon the stories of their own characters" is in fact an OORP motive.

Nope, I consider characters to be inRP, living their own inRP lives.

Perhaps given the anti-lawyering stance of this server, but then it comes down to the admin team's discretion, not yours.

Hence why I've made this thread, because it's a horribly ooRP thing to do and it should not be allowed on the server.

Running to the system wall is part of running in the opposite direction, and that is completely inrp.

To what end? I doubt a transport (or even a snub or gunboat) could cover such a long distance without refuelling. Furthermore it just seems silly that you're flying into a wall where you're going to explode. What captain would think to do that?

The system wall does NOT (currently) exist in rp.

Exactly. Players should not choose to opt out of an encounter via wall running because it's ooRP. It's on the same magnitude as F1ing.

Here, take my cargo, oh wait I just destroyed it damn I guess you'll just have to kill me, to be honest I'm sick of your bullying every goddam time and I would rather die than continue to succumb to your tyranny.
and then you would make another qq post banning traders from destroying their own cargo.

That is also terrible. Such spitefulness is cancerous to the server.
Honestly, with that post you really just strike me a typical QQing trader who wants to ruin every possible ounce of fun a pirate could have in an encounter.

Again, it takes two to tango.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I would be extremely one sided if I were arguing for the sanction of wall chasing. "pirates who chase traders to the edge of the system where they explode, instead of letting them successfully slip away, even when they know that they are not going to recieve any loot or bounty they still continue chasing, I would call that trolling.

Well given that you clearly have absolutely zero perspective on things from the view of the pirate, as well as your JM app describing that you know nothing about piracy, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

why do you hate traders so much.

I don't hate traders. I just really dislike their terrible close-minded attitudes. But (no offence) I do hate traders such as you describe (which is most likely representative of how you RP with pirates) who will do anything in order to spite the pirates they interact with.

if not then why are you trying to take their stuff? Why are you trying to prevent them from not giving you their stuff?

Why are you trying to spite pirates? Why don't you want to give them an encounter? Why do you want to give them as little fun as possible?

and c'mon, RP is not the real reason. you just want free stuff for 'staking out'
excuse me? that sounds very much like 'sitting on your ass at a choke spot'.

Uh...
That's called playing the role of a pirate. I suggest you read it up.

you just want to spite the haulers because of your irrational hatred towards them." <-basically your rhetoric when used against you.

Yeah, sure. It's not like I lead a faction that indulges in trading often or anything.

But, in the end I'm not the only one against whatever retardation you are proposing, so this rule change will not pass (unless you have the correct skypefriends, meh)

The counter arguments seem very weak thus far and are simply nothing but spite peppered with QQ.
John finally said something sane.

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[lIceColon]

This may be news for you as well, but "the intent to expand upon the stories of their own characters" is in fact an OORP motive.

Nope, I consider characters to be inRP, living their own inRP lives.

I don't know what levels of meta you're at, but I certainly don't wake up every day thinking "I'm going to expand upon the story of my character".

Perhaps given the anti-lawyering stance of this server, but then it comes down to the admin team's discretion, not yours.

Hence why I've made this thread, because it's a horribly ooRP thing to do and it should not be allowed on the server.

And I'm arguing that its NOT a oorp thing and you're just pissed because you wasted your time.

Running to the system wall is part of running in the opposite direction, and that is completely inrp.

To what end? I doubt a transport (or even a snub or gunboat) could cover such a long distance without refuelling. Furthermore it just seems silly that you're flying into a wall where you're going to explode. What captain would think to do that?

Highly subjective argument. until it is dictated that a ship must have a specific amount of supplies on board, my trader ship will always have enough fuel to run as far as game mechanics allow for.

The system wall does NOT (currently) exist in rp.

Exactly. Players should not choose to opt out of an encounter via wall running because it's ooRP. It's on the same magnitude as F1ing.

Not F1ing - pvp death perhaps, more like a successful escape similar to docking. Simple extrapolation - you didn't catch him then over the course of 700k of distance, you won't catch him later.

Here, take my cargo, oh wait I just destroyed it damn I guess you'll just have to kill me, to be honest I'm sick of your bullying every goddam time and I would rather die than continue to succumb to your tyranny.
and then you would make another qq post banning traders from destroying their own cargo.

That is also terrible. Such spitefulness is cancerous to the server.
Honestly, with that post you really just strike me a typical QQing trader who wants to ruin every possible ounce of fun a pirate could have in an encounter.

Last I checked you were the one QQing about being a terrible pirate who forgot to fly a faster ship.

Again, it takes two to tango.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

But the two are both valid gameplay, if the trader wants to stop wasting his time and get caught he should do so, if you want to stop wasting your time then you should stop chasing. Whatever time you wasted as a pirate was out of nothing but your own free will.

I would be extremely one sided if I were arguing for the sanction of wall chasing. "pirates who chase traders to the edge of the system where they explode, instead of letting them successfully slip away, even when they know that they are not going to recieve any loot or bounty they still continue chasing, I would call that trolling.

Well given that you clearly have absolutely zero perspective on things from the view of the pirate, as well as your JM app describing that you know nothing about piracy, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

Personal experiences do not, and never have been able to invalidate logic.

why do you hate traders so much.

I don't hate traders. I just really dislike their terrible close-minded attitudes. But (no offence) I do hate traders such as you describe (which is most likely representative of how you RP with pirates) who will do anything in order to spite the pirates they interact with.

ANY RP is RP. That dialogue that occurs during the chase to the syswall? That's your encounter right there.

if not then why are you trying to take their stuff? Why are you trying to prevent them from not giving you their stuff?

Why are you trying to spite pirates? Why don't you want to give them an encounter? Why do you want to give them as little fun as possible?

Em, easy. When I give pirates the stuff, I lose that stuff. You argument is basically blaming the mouse for not actively participating the cat's game of playing with its food. You play the game in order to take people's stuff, I have no obligation to actively enhance that experience beyond requirements of the server rules.

and c'mon, RP is not the real reason. you just want free stuff for 'staking out'
excuse me? that sounds very much like 'sitting on your ass at a choke spot'.

Uh...
That's called playing the role of a pirate. I suggest you read it up.

Not being able to catch a trader because you chose a slow ship is also called playing the role of a pirate, I suggest you suck it up.

you just want to spite the haulers because of your irrational hatred towards them." <-basically your rhetoric when used against you.

Yeah, sure. It's not like I lead a faction that indulges in trading often or anything.

Eh, yeah because JM hauling is totally representative of the trader experience. Understand that just because you behave in a certain way does not mean anyone else has to - to the extent of server rules. Maybe you play a nice victim, but that's your fantasy, not anyone else's.

But, in the end I'm not the only one against whatever retardation you are proposing, so this rule change will not pass (unless you have the correct skypefriends, meh)

The counter arguments seem very weak thus far and are simply nothing but spite peppered with QQ.
John finally said something sane.

The arguments for seem completely invalid thus far and is simply nothing but spite peppered with QQ.

---

No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Derkylos]

No. The point is that traders are doing it deliberately to spite pirates. There's no RP justifications for doing so. Removing the system wall would probably make it even less acceptable because then the trader could just run infinitely and would have the possibility to waste as much time as possible.

So you're saying that a person fleeing for their life would not, if they had no other option, flee into the void of space?

TBH, I have no issue one way or the other, having never experienced the phenomenon, but if you're going to say that you don't like it when people don't flee towards bases, don't try to justify it as an RP issue (especially as in RP you don't necessarily know where all the bases in a system are...)

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[casero]

You can't expect players to submit to your offer of interaction.
There are characters that are meant to avoid some other characters, a smuggler will not stop for a lawful, a coorp trader will not stop for a pirate, or some might stop, but you can't expect that from everyone, and even more, you can't force them to do it.

There is no wall in RP, that's just a game limitation, is it a jerk move? Maybe, sometimes it is, sometimes it is the only direction the transport managed to take and changing it would mean to be caught. Frustrating? Oh yes, had happened to me in the past, and we didn't have different cruise speeds back then, oh no, we had to try different sort of stupid things like Forming and E-killing and forming again, not only retarded but also useless most of times.

But, even as frustrating as it is, it's not avoiding interaction, it's nothing like F1ing, because you can't do anything against someone who press F1, but you can do something against someone escaping, you can call back-up, you can retreat and try to catch him somewhere else, you can try pirate him some other time and charge him even more. It is not the best of interactions, that's for sure, but it's one of the many you can get. I doubt anyone would run to the system wall if they had a chance to escape otherway. This is not a matter of a 2mildie pirate, or silent traders, this has nothing to do with the quality of your playing, this is a matter of accepting that interaction will not always be given in the way we want, and that people have different ideas on how interaction between "enemies" must be played.

Nothing good comes from chasing so far, you get frustrated, annoyed, you don't enjoy at all the game at that point. So, people, don't do it!!! If he got away, then that's it, take a deep breath and try again later. Happens to all of us.

This is not a matter of RP, because in RP, traders are more than justified to run away from pirates. So, people, please please please don't chase to system wall. Instead, put a bounty, give them hell wherever they go, take it in a RPlayable way.


PS: In a different matter, I've seen the same people arguing eachother in different threads about different topics (No matter the topic they keep arguing eachother). You should think about that.

[Lythrilux]

I don't know what levels of meta you're at, but I certainly don't wake up every day thinking "I'm going to expand upon the story of my character".

Hello

And I'm arguing that its NOT a oorp thing and you're just pissed because you wasted your time.

Well you're arguing for the WRONG reason. It makes no sense at all for someone to want to plot a suicidal journey straight into and invisible wall where they will explode.

Highly subjective argument. until it is dictated that a ship must have a specific amount of supplies on board, my trader ship will always have enough fuel to run as far as game mechanics allow for.

I would say it's better to leave it as flat out undefined, rather than assuming that your ship has infinite supplies, because that's not believable.

Not F1ing - pvp death perhaps, more like a successful escape similar to docking. Simple extrapolation - you didn't catch him then over the course of 700k of distance, you won't catch him later.

But the intent of it isn't to escape. The intent is to spite the other player.

Last I checked you were the one QQing about being a terrible pirate who forgot to fly a faster ship.

Last time I checked you were the one QQing that exploding into a system wall is justifiable (:

But the two are both valid gameplay, if the trader wants to stop wasting his time and get caught he should do so,

In what situation does he want to do that though? You said yourself that you wouldn't, and I doubt other people would too. They'd rather spite the other player.

if you want to stop wasting your time then you should stop chasing. Whatever time you wasted as a pirate was out of nothing but your own free will.

But that is not the point. As I have said many times, the problem is the intent of one player to troll the other.

Personal experiences do not, and never have been able to invalidate logic.

In your case, they give your arguments a considerable more amount of weight. Right now, you're talking out of your bottm.

ANY RP is RP. That dialogue that occurs during the chase to the syswall? That's your encounter right there.

An encounter created out of hate and spite? Sure, that's certainly healthy.

Em, easy. When I give pirates the stuff, I lose that stuff. You argument is basically blaming the mouse for not actively participating the cat's game of playing with its food.

Eh... a cat and mouse comparison is very two dimensional. As Snak3 pointed out, you seem to be very deluded in thinking that people are out just for the kill in a piracy encounter. In a piracy encounter, a trader can avoid death.
However, Cat and Mouse does apply in PvP encounters between (e.g) house militaries. However, this is a game. People play it to have fun. Another player going out of his way to spite the other does not breed fun. Imagine if official factions did this all the time? No one would want to play with them.

You play the game in order to take people's stuff, I have no obligation to actively enhance that experience beyond requirements of the server rules.

Mhm, that is indeed the role of a pirate. And indeed, you're under no obligation to hand over your credits/cargo. However, there's so many things you can do to avoid getting pirated other than falling onto retarded ooRP measures such as wall running (or in the cases of other traders, F1ing and the like). And you said you'd blow up your cargo yourself? Does that contradict what you said? And how does that help you at all provided I just let you live?

Not being able to catch a trader because you chose a slow ship is also called playing the role of a pirate, I suggest you suck it up.

I'll happily admit defeat if my target runs off to a base or down a lane or something. However running towards a wall of death is just absolutely stupid. It's done for no reason other than to spite the other player.

Eh, yeah because JM hauling is totally representative of the trader experience.

I never said I was. Are you implying that you're a better representative of traders? If so, then dear god. You've just made traders all over disco look much stupider and less credible today.
I'm just showing that I can, unlike you, approach this argument with an open mind because I've explored the gameplay from both sides.

Understand that just because you behave in a certain way does not mean anyone else has to - to the extent of server rules. Maybe you play a nice victim, but that's your fantasy, not anyone else's.

Well no one does have to play in a certain way, I'm not saying they should. In an RP server, people should be allowed their creativity of course. However that right becomes invalid when they start acting ooRPly in an inRP environment.

The arguments for seem completely invalid thus far and is simply nothing but spite peppered with QQ.

Quoting that and then warping it for your own use just makes you seem incredibly ignorant. You'd have to be a fool to ignore the superior arguments presented on the past few pages.

So you're saying that a person fleeing for their life would not, if they had no other option, flee into the void of space?

TBH, I have no issue one way or the other, having never experienced the phenomenon, but if you're going to say that you don't like it when people don't flee towards bases, don't try to justify it as an RP issue (especially as in RP you don't necessarily know where all the bases in a system are...)

I keep telling you, I'm not trying to justify it as an inRP issue :/

You can't expect players to submit to your offer of interaction.
There are characters that are meant to avoid some other characters, a smuggler will not stop for a lawful, a coorp trader will not stop for a pirate, or some might stop, but you can't expect that from everyone, and even more, you can't force them to do it.

Still doesn't justify suicidal runs into a system wall though however,

something against someone escaping, you can call back-up, you can retreat and try to catch him somewhere else, you can try pirate him some other time and charge him even more.

That seems like a needlessly complicated alternative to dealing with ooRP trolling.
Traders can just log off and come on when you're not around anyway.

Nothing good comes from chasing so far, you get frustrated, annoyed, you don't enjoy at all the game at that point. So, people, don't do it!!! If he got away, then that's it, take a deep breath and try again later. Happens to all of us.

What kind of standards are we trying to set though? We should just simply let people get away with ooRP maneuvers against other players.

PS: In a different matter, I've seen the same people arguing eachother in different threads about different topics (No matter the topic they keep arguing eachother). You should think about that.

Well, HighlandLaddie did say that my threads have the unfortunate habit of attracting people. - There are some words that are fundamentally unpleasant - try to think about whether you need them or not. If you decide "need" then some people may get annoyed - Tunicle

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