House, Military, Police and Intelligence IDs

[Thunderer]

I still don't understand why people are using the phrase 'wild west' though. These systems are the arteries that connect Houses.

They are not discrete, low population, strategically insignificant or out the way. They are literally the conduits through which all pan-House trade and travel is conducted.

The actual wild systems are the deep Omegas, Taus and Omicrons. This just shows the clear disconnect between administration and development, when ID changes pretty much ignore story development and system design.

This


PS: I blame aerelm. I'm expecting some credits from Blodo.

[WesternPeregrine]

So... which laws were actively being enforced outside house space, other than bringing the fight to long time enemies of the state, and making efforts of keeping them on the "outside" of the borders?

And then, how does fixing that involve demoting the Naval Factions to "Military Police" factions (because without war related affairs, they are now Police factions who trade tlags for a Battleship)? What good are borders or "walls", if the defenders can only attack those who are already inside?

Or should we see this the other way, and consider it as pressure for the houses "to annex" those border systems completely, aggravating this issue?

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[Thyrzul]

It got consumed by countries ''aka houses'' and turned into civilization and not left to be a lawless place where crimes, drugs, killings and what not thrived.

That's an interpretation some players think is valid.
But who decided that you managed to conquer it? To civilize it? And that you were successful?

Would these systems still look like they do (base locations, etc) -IF- Houses managed?

Answer is: they did not manage.

Bc then FP1 would not be in a O3 central position with Sairs staging from there. Freistadt would not be the central lane station in O7. Dozens of bases would be replaced by (boring) lawful bases, systems would end boring and bland. There are countless systems that would look radically different -IF- Houses really were in control.

What Houses managed is: They -STARTED- to push into the borderworld systems. Examples: O7: a Battleship. O3: a planet colonization project in its early stages.

I think this process should take a bit.
Years, to be precise. Decades irply.
And not: "We are here now. All is clear and orderly and safe. Here, laws. Here, police. Now behave or get shafted big time."

And, another thought:

What happened to colonies after the motherlands lost wars or wasted massive amounts of resources in wars? They all lost their colonies. Looking at Disco Houses, I heavily doubt that despite the understandable appetite for new systems, they can actually pull it off as easily as many seem to think. Controlling a system is a huge thing, time and ressource consuming.

So, yes. Wild West and independence for the "Independent Border Worlds" (excluding perhaps the main lanes, and a few k around the lawful bases - represented by the changed ID however).

Rest: wilderness, lawlessness (like... NY Badlands. Right there, Wild West, in the main capital, a few k off the lanes).

Yes, Houses are trying and their Navies should have some presence there (as there is already rp and the process should be rped actively), but: no laws can be enforced to avoid things like "you shot someone in BW, pay X or there will be consequences Y" to represent that they do not manage to do it yet.

That's what it should be in my opinion.
Middle ground between "total lawlessness" (as in vanilla) and "totally tame and under House control" (as many in here tend to think). A long process in which Houses try and get a foothold, but it's still faaaar out of their control.

Jack

Afaik Sairs don't stage attacks off from FP1, but that freeport already had to face a lot of trouble because of harboring criminals who were preying on Bret corps quite often, only to draw BAF attention to the Freeport they were residing at. What do you think, how many troubles like that will the Freeport survive until Admins/Devs think "hey, let's bring RP consequences again"? That it still exists as a freeport is one of Disco's well known features, usually called "lack of logic" or "no consequences".

I guess same applies to Freistadt, if you harbor criminals and the police/navy gets to know it, you either comply with them, or get shot in the face by your friendly neighbor turtle. Or, you know, since it's Disco, cry loud enough and police/navy allowances will be nerfed enough to make you technically invincible in such situations.

Sure, the process should not happen overnight, but guess what, it doesn't. It is slow enough already, doesn't need more slowing, not to mention a 180° turn...

The difference between irl colonies going independent after motherland losing wars and Disco stuff is that here the colonies are usually far less isolated from the motherland. If, let's say, GRN forces occupying Tau-44 would declare themselves independent after main fleet getting pushed back to Gallia, then your analogy would fit that situation.

We've always had the wilderness you are talking about, Badlands, and all the other clouds and fields away from lanes being lawless areas of space. We still have half of Omegas for no man's land, for your Wild West, these things are nothing new. What's new is that now authorities can't protect even the lanes between their house and out-of-house assets like they used to. And that's not really the middle ground you are preaching of.

And try not to generalize an issue from specific experiences, talk it out with RM yourself inRP, they are not almighty either, and most importantly, not every navy faction are like them.

PS: FP1 makes no sense there. If it would be like where Aland is, even that would make a lot more sense.

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[Jack_Henderson]

Afaik Sairs don't stage attacks off from FP1, but that freeport already had to face a lot of trouble because of harboring criminals who were preying on Bret corps quite often, only to draw BAF attention to the Freeport they were residing at. What do you think, how many troubles like that will the Freeport survive until Admins/Devs think "hey, let's bring RP consequences again"? That it still exists as a freeport is one of Disco's well known features, usually called "lack of logic" or "no consequences".

See, Thyrzul:

FP1 makes perfect sense in an independent border world system in which Bretonia - a war-weakened, injured giant - tumbled in, searching for a place to put their people. They would not care for Freeport 1 mess. They are losing a war, they are fighting for survival, they are pressed by Gallics and Sairs... and they somehow try to save the people.

In such a context, FP 1 small law infractions are a non-issue.
Unlikely to be even noticed.
There are more pressing issues.

If you look at O3 like that, it makes sense.

If you look at O3 as a system firmly under House control, with House laws applied and enforced... FP1 makes no sense. Then it would have been burnt long ago, but Bretonia - in the vision I have at least - has neither resources, nor manpower, nor appetite for any unnecessary conflict. They cannot purge the Freeport, root out Hessian problems, keep DHC at bay and tame an unruly IMG, while fight off Sairs and SCRA and Mollys and Gallia. This has nothing to do with "no rp repercussion", but with a realistic approach of what one can do and what one can't do in a dire situation.


The facts are:
> FP1 is still there.
> The systems are still labelled as "independent border worlds".
> There is still a rulewise clear distinction between "house space" and "non-house space".
=> For me it is pretty clear which version of O3 (as depicted above) is the one that is closer to what it should be irply.

Sure, the process should not happen overnight, but guess what, it doesn't. It is slow enough already, doesn't need more slowing, not to mention a 180° turn...

It is much too fast.
And your "180° turn" came in when it became clear that some (not all) Houses do not understand how not to play it. Look at the near-total control that many Houses claim over every little bit of their territory. The PoB taxation rules came in for a reason.

The difference between irl colonies going independent after motherland losing wars and Disco stuff is that here the colonies are usually far less isolated from the motherland. If, let's say, GRN forces occupying Tau-44 would declare themselves independent after main fleet getting pushed back to Gallia, then your analogy would fit that situation.

Weakened parties that try to claim systems would have a very hard time and would not succeed fast.
So the analogy works.

We've always had the wilderness you are talking about, Badlands, and all the other clouds and fields away from lanes being lawless areas of space.

Nope. You were taxed when you built a base in there and threatened with destruction. Shooting an unlawful hunter merc in O7 means death penalty and 60+ million fine. That's the reality of "Borderworlds" and what some make of it.

What's new is that now authorities can't protect even the lanes between their house and out-of-house assets like they used to. And that's not really the middle ground you are preaching of.

Overdramatical. You can protect the traffic on the lanes and the bases with the ID we have now.

However, as I have said in faction leaders' channel often: Yes, I think Navy ID should be allowed to "engage reds", in line with the "slow attempt to push into these new systems".

So yes, my middle ground is easily do-able. It only needs a person to change that line on Navy ID, so that BAF can shoot Sairs in O3, that RM can shoot Hessians in O7, that KNF can kill OC in T29, and LN shoot LR in Kepler. That should not be terribly hard to achieve.

Send it as a player request, and see what happens.

And try not to generalize an issue from specific experiences, talk it out with RM yourself inRP, they are not almighty either, and most importantly, not every navy faction are like them.

Never had a problem with RM.

[Omicron]

...How does interhouse trade is supposed to work now? Flying past pirate heavens?
...Why are trade lanes even existing, lawfuls being incapable of protecting them? Jumpgates?
...How is that supposed to fix anything?

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[Fluffyball]

Looks like people have some problems with reading. Every listed ID is still able to defend every friendly and neutral vessel within their ZOI, but they cannot hunt actively in the non-House ZOI system.

Which is fine by me. No more extortions from player bases in the independent systems. In return, for a fee, police/military/intel is still able to protect bases. You don't pay? Not our job.

Good job in making Bounty Hunters actually playable and - wow! - NEEDED. Where Police cannot go, there bounters will be sent.


After being quite opposite to the idea, I've changed my mind as:

+ Corporate warfare outside house space will be (at last!) a thing.
+ Bounty Hunters will be actually needed to protect areas.
+ No more extortions from the POB in the neutral systems.
+ No more tensions between different law codexes (vide Cortez; Magellan).
+ Pirates will have some breath at last, without "You got Cardi, 10M fine" from lolwhuts.

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[Lythrilux]

FP1 makes perfect sense in an independent border world system in which Bretonia - a war-weakened, injured giant - tumbled in, searching for a place to put their people. They would not care for Freeport 1 mess. They are losing a war, they are fighting for survival, they are pressed by Gallics and Sairs... and they somehow try to save the people.

In such a context, FP 1 small law infractions are a non-issue.
Unlikely to be even noticed.
There are more pressing issues.

If you look at O3 like that, it makes sense.

If you look at O3 as a system firmly under House control, with House laws applied and enforced... FP1 makes no sense. Then it would have been burnt long ago, but Bretonia - in the vision I have at least - has neither resources, nor manpower, nor appetite for any unnecessary conflict. They cannot purge the Freeport, root out Hessian problems, keep DHC at bay and tame an unruly IMG, while fight off Sairs and SCRA and Mollys and Gallia. This has nothing to do with "no rp repercussion", but with a realistic approach of what one can do and what one can't do in a dire situation.

You do realize that BAF are pretty much one of the key reasons why FP1 doesn't just get overwhelmed and turned into a Corsair base? No way can factions like IMG or Core etc. be strong enough to stop a Corsair armada sweeping over the station. Intelligence factions would need the backing of a house militarily at least to prevent something like this. Same for the BMM base in that system too. Given Sprauge in that system too, BAF has every reason to have a presence there.

It is much too fast.
And your "180° turn" came in when it became clear that some (not all) Houses do not understand how not to play it. Look at the near-total control that many Houses claim over every little bit of their territory. The PoB taxation rules came in for a reason.

Can you really give an inRP justification as to why BAF makes a 180 degree turn and tells Prauge to get stuffed?

Nope. You were taxed when you built a base in there and threatened with destruction. Shooting an unlawful hunter merc in O7 means death penalty and 60+ million fine. That's the reality of "Borderworlds" and what some make of it.

Correction, that is not the reality of the border worlds. The deeper border worlds certainly do not suffer that. A corp sends a merc after you, why not send a merc after them back?

Overdramatical. You can protect the traffic on the lanes and the bases with the ID we have now.

Unlawfuls can just run and come back once the other player is demotivated. Lawfuls have effectively been pushed out of the food chain.

However, as I have said in faction leaders' channel often: Yes, I think Navy ID should be allowed to "engage reds", in line with the "slow attempt to push into these new systems".

I agree that the navy should be allowed to engage reds, but how is it a slow attempt? These factions already have influence in these systems via lore; some even have in game assets. Is it really fair that the admins, at the request of a small group of players, walk up to those factions and tell them everything they've done is retconned/defunct?

Send it as a player request, and see what happens.

No more player requests. We need maximum transparency and group discussion on matters like this. Secret arguments put forward by random players, which are then discussed behind closed doors, are not healthy for the server.

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[Laura C.]

Nope. You were taxed when you built a base in there and threatened with destruction. Shooting an unlawful hunter merc in O7 means death penalty and 60+ million fine. That's the reality of "Borderworlds" and what some make of it.

I would like to remind you it happened just outside battleship Schwerin. So even if we will go with your "wild west idea", it still happened in that one small piece of space where Rheinland is enforcing its authority including laws.

Also, I wonder why some people including you got stucked with 4.84 lore and refuse to consider there might be some changes. That there is something like environment development. Bretonia lost several systems in last two game updates. That is real for you? Then fact that O-7 and O-3 are no longer a deserted lawless space (at least on the lanes and near them) should be too.

Looks like people have some problems with reading. Every listed ID is still able to defend every friendly and neutral vessel within their ZOI, but they cannot hunt actively in the non-House ZOI system.

This in ingame reality means that if trader asks me for protection on his way through Omega-7, this will happen: Everyone knows that escorting sucks, only effective way of protection is scouting. But if I find hostile (pirate/Corsair/Hessian) sitting on a lane, I can´t engage him. Oh, I even can´t engage him when he starts insulting me and mock me. And actually he can even go harass me with CDs, waiting for his buddies to make "balanced fight" (read gank)...AND I STILL CAN´T ENGAGE HIM because CDing is not engaging (pirates know what I mean, they went through it after their ID was nerfed).

But let´s assume I won the fight. I´m returning now to Stuttgart when smuggler cross my path. With cargo bay full of slaves or cardamine or whatever. What can I do? Only smile at him, wave and wish him safe flight. What a great police officer I am.

Is now more clear what kind of absurd situation this will create?

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Tarator]

+ Pirates will have some breath at last, without "You got Cardi, 10M fine" from lolwhuts.

As if there are no lolwut pirates with their "10 mil or dai".

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[Hawk]

The Admins are actively discussing a few tweaks to this based on the feedback we have received. It would be most helpful if we could get constructive feedback rather than people sniping at each other. This will be locked for a brief time to let people cool off and put some thought into this. When it is opened back up, we would like to see CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on how this situation can be improved. Anyone who chooses to make negative comments to another member after this warning will not be happy.