(05-11-2015, 02:14 PM)Toris Gray Wrote: *Points at Gallic Royal Navy, which wasn't even asked about Oubli destruction or event as a whole.*
*Points at Gallia and Rheinland roleplay about alliance and hitting onto Liberty, ignored completely.*
*Points at Bretonia, which, all in all, should have lose the New London after all roleplay GRN made.*
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I think you're assuming quite a lot. If you want the truth, a GRN HC/past leader suggested the event in the beginning. It's not like it wasn't planned out.
Kusari, Gallia, and Rheinland have a trade agreement. That's actually about it.
Yes, because home systems are really easy to take. Gallia can steamroll passive borderworlds all day long (see: Taus) but in truth, they've had a hard time fighting in Leeds, and Leeds isn't even fully taken yet.
I think you need to let your mind cool down before jumping to conclusions. Also sorry for being off topic a bit, just wanted to clear this up.
Quote:Seeing threads like this and the Faction Leaders' Skype chat, I feel like a lot of people have made mass FR5s some kind of boogeyman that's around every corner when really, almost everyone agrees that it's a pretty crappy thing to FR5 an entire group all the time at the drop of a hat. Instead, we cite a few old examples here and there and recent "near misses" in order to justify knee-jerk changes. In reality, the "near misses" are due to cooler heads agreeing that mass FR5s suck, and each time that happens it reinforces the sentiment that it's a bad idea. As a member of LibGov, I can confirm that a mass FR5 occasionally gets brought up when we discuss crime and punishment simply because we're going over our options, but in recent time it's been shot down just about immediately because we agree that it's poor form.
Example: right now as things sit, IMG-BMM-Kruger-DHC should literally be shooting the CRAP out of each other in the Omegas as they vie for mineral rights, but they don't. Same with Gateway-Bowex, Kishiro-Samura, and whoever Liberty corps hate elsewhere in Sirius, but it doesn't really. Why not? Because IMG are such pacifists? Because Kruger is so generous in sharing? Because BMM is so uninterested in expanding beyond Dublin/Cambridge now that they've lost all business in the Taus? No...it's because none of them wants to get FR5ed by the House govs for attacking their corporate rivals.
So, yeah...maybe this hasn't actually happened en masse to make it a problem, but the threat of it actually happening seems to have been enough to prevent this kind of corporate warfare from happening either.
Quote:End result? Law enforcement can still do what they should be able to without arbitrary invisible walls stopping them, and offended corporates will have to request more patrols in that area instead of demanding immediate action based on supplied screens.
Might help. Gateway-Bowex at least have a sort of gentlemen's agreement going that no screen shots of us shooting each other would be permissive as evidence unless those are actually taken by law enforcement. So, as long as no cops are there to see it, we can shoot each other up outside House space all we want with no repercussions. Maybe if other factions would do the same, none of this would be an issue, or certainly much less of one.
This goal can only be achieved with hard-coded rule change (be it ID or server rules):
Quote:This change was made primarily to help Unlawful/Corporate/Quasi-lawful factions have a bit more breathing room to engage each other, without having to worry about being FR5'd or face other dire consequences from House Governments. [...] (Garret)
Anybody who knows how factions work and how some factions want to screw over others, knows that this goal can never be achieved with anything that is not a rule.
"Self-restraint" and "common sense" ..."talk to each other", and "remember that FR5 is bad"... are you kidding me? Do you know the reality of how this game is being played behind the scenes?
Obviously not.
This needs to be hard-coded to be sufficiently reliable.
Before this has happened (in whatever way), corps and semi-lawful factions are as restricted and kept from playing what they should be able to play as before. You never know whether you would be struck with ID-wrecking consequences, so you can't take the risk, so you abstain from the action. I have done that for 4+ years now and practically all other factions that could do corp piracy also kept their fingers away from it. I know why.
Quote:Gateway-Bowex at least have a sort of gentlemen's agreement going that no screen shots of us shooting each other would be permissive as evidence unless those are actually taken by law enforcement. So, as long as no cops are there to see it, we can shoot each other up outside House space all we want with no repercussions. Maybe if other factions would do the same, none of this would be an issue, or certainly much less of one.
Gentlemen's agreements have been tried.
Only BMM- agreed. Rheinland mining faction leaders denied.
Seems it's comfortable to have the backing of an omnipotent oorp threat of wrecking an ID (= House FR5) as a joker.
(05-10-2015, 11:10 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: No more player requests. We need maximum transparency and group discussion on matters like this. Secret arguments put forward by random players, which are then discussed behind closed doors, are not healthy for the server.
What Lyth said. Nothing about us without us.
On topic, Blodo's proposed solution seems better that the current change. Though the general situation is still motivated by people wishing to avoid roleplay consequences.
I don't see why people want to stop corporate warfare so much. That's one of the coolest things Disco can be doing right now, and a slight change of the rules to stop houses spamming the custom FR5 button on their keyboard is best.
And with luck, IDF/EFL/GMS can start doing stuff with BMM/Bowex/IMG/Gateway. More activity, something cool and fun for corporations that's not just moving back and forth, and it still allows spooky scary borderworlds which seems to be the purpose of this change.
Let corps kill corps and pirates kill corps (and other pirates too).
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(05-11-2015, 05:26 PM)Miaou Wrote: And with luck, IDF/EFL/GMS can start doing stuff with BMM/Bowex/IMG/Gateway. More activity, something cool and fun for corporations that's not just moving back and forth, and it still allows spooky scary borderworlds which seems to be the purpose of this change.
Let corps kill corps and pirates kill corps (and other pirates too).
I'm hoping my Leeds event suggestion will introduce a load of interest in making Gallic corp ships, which should facilitate that sort of thing in Leeds and the Taus. That in turn will give your guys a bunch of stuff to chase around - Privateers, Bowex, Exiles, etc.
(05-11-2015, 04:23 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: Gentlemen's agreements have been tried.
Only BMM- agreed. Rheinland mining faction leaders denied.
Seems it's comfortable to have the backing of an omnipotent oorp threat of wrecking an ID (= House FR5) as a joker.
Involvement in your Omega-9 wild west idea was denied by Rheinland mining factions as joining would've forced corp characters to completely abandon any sort of common sense. Omega-9 did not hold any economical value and was a very risky establishment, as such not worth it.
While forcing governments to ignore incidents that negatively impact their economy or harm civilians because "did not happen in house space" might not make the most sense either, I definitely agree that what jammi/blodo pointed out might work out the best. It can't really get much worse than the current change, though.
What might also be interesting to consider are public ooRP warfare agreements. Sometimes, a faction might only battle selected factions as it might be less fun and productive with others. As such, they should be given the option to choose between corporate warfare and government protection. If an agreement is made, both factions forfeit their government protection until the agreement is cancelled. Any evidence obtained during the agreement is invalid for house governments, hence the public visibility.
To prevent abuse (declaring war one day, peace the other and war again the next day) it should be impossible to cancel them immediately and to cancel them mere days after the agreement was made. When one is made, it is active for at least a week. Before it is cancelled, it must be announced a week prior.
The problem with people avoiding this coveted "corporate piracy" is that they want it both ways - harassing, robbing, and shooting their competitors without the possible RP consequence of that corporation's house wanting to protect their interests, just flying past that same faction's bases in their house space as if nothing happened.
If you're deathly afraid you'll maybe get a little red stain on your crisp green repsheet from shooting someone with connections, perhaps it's more a matter of hardening up and facing potential in-game consequences than seeking admin intervention to implement a broad restriction on RP distress calls and a response by law enforcement when that makes perfect sense as well. Not all house law enforcement chooses to pursue it, which is nice and can make for some underhanded fun when all parties consent, but when they don't consent, what were you expecting from robbing and killing people? It's a diplomatic risk that you've got to account for as a smart corporation with an image to maintain and relationships to foster in your cost-benefit analysis. Players criticize factions that are friendly/neutral to a majority of Sirius all the time despite their actions, so why are they trying to get the same treatment?
Get creative if it's too much for your delicate repsheet to handle: attack them by proxies and stir up more factions' activity, make keeping their mouth shut part of the demand, give kickbacks to corrupt cops, make your services to that house more vital than their own corps' in some way. There are countless possibilities. Also, if people were friendlier with each other OORP, they could come to better general agreements to piracy (without being too pitched and artificial) without anyone crying, but there are far too many egos invested in pixels.
